spacerspacerspacer
spacer
Text/HTML
spacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacer
Minimize
VinoCellar.com Wine Forums
Parker's Double Decanting Procedure...
Last Post 10-25-2007 12:40 AM by Al_ksyrah. 20 Replies.
AddThis - Bookmarking and Sharing ButtonPrinter Friendly
Sort:
PrevPrevNextNext
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 212 > >>
AuthorMessages
jmch75  Send Private Message
San Diego, CA
jmch75
Grape Stomper
Grape Stomper
Posts: 126

--
10-21-2007 12:22 PM  
Looking for some clarification on Parker's Double D.

"Readers who want to drink [it] are advised to decant it for at least 12-24 hours prior to consumption.  I suggest double decanting, i.e., pouring it into a clean decanter, washing out the bottle, and then repouring it back into the bottle, inserting the cork, leaving the air space to serve as breathing space until the wine is consumed 12-24 hours later.  The improvement is striking."

So here are the points needing more information.

- Pour into clean decanter.  Ok.  Sounds easy enough.  It seems like this is merely to act as a temporary container for the wine, as the instructions do not indicate that the wine must be aired for any considerable amount of time.  So, the actual decanting is for sediment only?

-  Wash out the bottle.  I'm not sure using water to swish it around would be the best thing here.  The wine in question is fairly expensive, and I'd hate to use even a couple of ounces to swish it around  and then dump it out.  What is the suggestion  here?

- Repouring it back into the bottle and corking it.  Easy enough, so  basically, the wine will be exposed to the air in the ulleage, which in this case, should be equivalent to the surface area of a quarter or whatever the inner diameter of the bottle would be.  I believe the "other" board refers to this as the Andouzie (sp?) method?

- And we put it back in a temperature controlled environment (upright) for 12-24 hours.


Hmm.  So, would it be the same effect if you pop the bottle, then just put the cork back in, and let it Andouze (sp?) for 12-24 hours, and when you are ready to drink, simply decant for sediment, and then drink out of the decanter?  This way it seems like we could save the "washing out the bottle" step.

Hence, the double decanting referring to 1st, sediment, and then 2nd Andouzie according to Parker?

Thoughts?

Seamus Campbell  Send Private Message
Portland, Oregon
Seamus Campbell
Grape Fermenter
Grape Fermenter
Posts: 554

--
10-21-2007 12:33 PM  
You're going to introduce significantly more oxygen by transferring it between containers twice.

And what's your concern about washing the bottle? You don't want to lose the last dregs of the wine? Or you don't want to water it down? You're losing the last of it anyway when you decant off the sediment, and you're not going to add more than a few drops of water to the wine. Certainly not enough to notice.
Randy Wigginton  Send Private Message
Randy Wigginton
Master of Wine
Master of Wine
Posts: 11794

--
10-21-2007 01:14 PM  
By decanting you will likely lose a bit of wine to the process, and it would be foolish not to taste the wine when it is first opened (no point in double decanting a corked or faulty bottle. Thus the ullage will be larger than originally. As stated above, the oxygen introduced by the double decanting procedure is substantial.

What wine are you thinking of doing this with?
David Niederauer  Send Private Message
Los Gatos, CA
David Niederauer
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
Posts: 31272

--
10-21-2007 01:25 PM  
François Audouze is an experienced (read: old and been doing wine well over a half century [like me]) and respected Frenchman board member on Squires.

He describes his decanting method as "slow oxygenation method" (SOM) concerning wines before 1961, that can be named "Audouze method" if it is with moderation and no sycophancy''.


sycophancy
sy·co·phan·cy
Pronunciation:  \ˈsi-kə-fən(t)-sē alsoˈsī- & -ˌfan(t)-sē\
Function:  noun
obsequious flattery


obsequious
ob·se·qui·ous

Pronunciation:  \əb-ˈsē-kwē-əs, äb-\
Function:  adjective
marked by or exhibiting a fawning attentiveness


There are, of course, a million ways one can "aerate" a bottle of wine (well, maybe a dozen).  Short of just popping the cork and letting the bottle sit is decanting.

Francois' method is, theoretically, for an older wine that has sediment.  He also suggests an alternate similar to what you say.  He pops the cork and pours off a couple of ounces (giving more air surface in the bottle) and letting the bottle sit open for a period of time.  During that period of time he comes back to the bottle once an hour (or whatever) and tastes the wine.  If he determines the wine is "ready" he puts the cork back in.

Be sure you us "
moderation and no sycophancy" while doing this!


Bob Bressler  Send Private Message
Napa Valley
Bob Bressler
Wine Connoisseur
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5434

--
10-21-2007 04:05 PM  
Posted By David Niederauer on 10/21/2007 1:25 PM
  If he determines the wine is "ready" he puts the cork back in.


Of course, putting the cork back in does not stop the chemical reactions going on within the wine.
David Niederauer  Send Private Message
Los Gatos, CA
David Niederauer
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
Posts: 31272

--
10-21-2007 04:26 PM  
Don't you think it would slow it down a lot?
Daniel Bailey  Send Private Message
Daniel Bailey
Barrel Racker
Barrel Racker
Posts: 1618

--
10-21-2007 04:27 PM  
No.
David Niederauer  Send Private Message
Los Gatos, CA
David Niederauer
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
Posts: 31272

--
10-21-2007 04:31 PM  
Well, the two people that I respect the most when it comes to wine have shot me down.

So I'll say: If you determine it is ready... drink it!
jmch75  Send Private Message
San Diego, CA
jmch75
Grape Stomper
Grape Stomper
Posts: 126

--
10-21-2007 05:35 PM  
My concern for "washing out the bottle" was indeed the "watering down" effect.
I'm not sure if introducing the few drops of water will water down/contaminate/add chlorinated/flourided taste/elements.

Maybe the right procedure is to sacrifice a few ounces of the decanted wine to "wash out" the bottle and "washing out" implies using clean wine, and never water.

The point is correct that the ulleage will be quite larger due to sediment decanting. I forgot about this. But, sticking a cork back into the bottle and letting it sit for 12-24 hours.... doesn't seem like it gives the air trapped in the bubble enough opportunity to "aerate" the entire wine, as the bottle shape is not designed to expose a large surface area on the wine, especially since the wine is static, and there is no agitation. Since this is not as old as a 60s bottle, only an 80s, maybe the SOM method is not applicable here.

"The oxygen introduced by the double decanting procedure is substantial." Even if the wine is exposed to air for lets say 2 minutes to sediment decant, and then immediately poured back into the narrow bottle?

Confusing. Seems more straightforward to sediment decant and then put a plate or something over the decanter and let it sit for a few hours if you wanted to limit the amount of new air contacting the wine for the "aeration decant".






Daniel Bailey  Send Private Message
Daniel Bailey
Barrel Racker
Barrel Racker
Posts: 1618

--
10-21-2007 05:52 PM  
Personally I think you (and others) are making this way too complicated.  Plus using decanted wine to clean the bottle seems like a real waste to me.

If you want to decant the wine for a long time in this manner then just pull the cork, pour yourself a few ounces to increase the head space/surface area, drink the few ounces (and hope it doesn't taste too good right now because you are opening this at a time when you can't drink it), and cork the bottle.  Uncork the bottle whenever you want to actually drink it (decant off the sediment if you aren't just going to pour out the entire bottle into glasses right then) and serve.
Vine  Send Private Message
Milwaukee, WI
Vine
Barrel Racker
Barrel Racker
Posts: 1945

--
10-21-2007 07:18 PM  
The only time I ever D.D. is when I want to transport a young wine to a location lacking a decanter or the time neccessary to properly decant. Otherwise, I've never found the results to be any better than "single" decanting (S.D., do abreviations work for this?). But then again, I rarley D.D. and have not had the chance to accurately compare a D.D. to a S.D. of the same wine - Anyone ever try out this type of comparison before?
Dave  Send Private Message
Dave
Wine Addict
Wine Addict
Posts: 6073

--
10-22-2007 08:05 AM  
Posted By David Niederauer on 10/21/2007 1:25 PM
François Audouze is an experienced (read: old and been doing wine well over a half century [like me]) and respected Frenchman board member on Squires.

He describes his decanting method as "slow oxygenation method" (SOM) concerning wines before 1961, that can be named "Audouze method" if it is with moderation and no sycophancy''.

Francois' method is, theoretically, for an older wine that has sediment.  He also suggests an alternate similar to what you say.  He pops the cork and pours off a couple of ounces (giving more air surface in the bottle) and letting the bottle sit open for a period of time.  During that period of time he comes back to the bottle once an hour (or whatever) and tastes the wine.  If he determines the wine is "ready" he puts the cork back in.




To be clear, he suggests not decanting the wine at all.  He just opens the cork well in advance of the dinner.  In most cases, he does not pour any wine from the bottle relying instead on the chemical reactions that Bob and Daniel identify.  If the wine has off-odors, he may pour out an ounce or so to increase the surface area.  When the wine is ready he doesn't put the cork back in, he pours!

None of this is new of course, but it has taken on his name and now seems to be used as a verb.
Al_ksyrah  Send Private Message
Al_ksyrah
Barrel Sampler
Barrel Sampler
Posts: 2346

--
10-22-2007 10:50 AM  
Oxygen is absorbed very quickly at the surface of a liquid, but diffuses quite slowly away from the surface. The idea behind double decanting, particularly if you pour it so it streams over the side of the decanter, is that it vastly increases the surface area so a lot of oxygen is absorbed and the turbulent mixing of the liquid distributes the oxygenated wine throughout the volume. This is far more efficient at oxygenating the wine than simply pulling the cork and leaving it to stand. Letting it sit for a long time after double decanting is more about giving time for various chemical reactions than absorbing additional oxygen.

-Al
JimmyV  Send Private Message
Central Connecticut
JimmyV
Wine Connoisseur
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5838

--
10-22-2007 02:08 PM  

It never ceases to amaze me how the topic of double decanting can bring out the geeky-ness in wine lovers, and cause people to lose all semblence of common sense. Look at this logically. The reason for the second decant is to get the wine back into the original bottle so that the surface area exposed to air is much smaller than the surface area would be in a decanter, which is usually favored for its maximizing aeration shape, but that feature is not wanted here. So we are told to wash out the bottle, which gives people hives about dilution. SIMPLE SOLUTION. Decant the wine ONCE, using a funnel, pouring it from the original bottle to an already clean and dry bottle saved for this very purpose. No need to use a decanter as an intermediate vessel, and no need to wash out the original bottle of sediment, risking residual water. As you decant, stop just before the wine gets to the neck so that you have the surface area you desire, and then pour the remaining wine, (sediment and all) into whatever glass you want to have your taste. No waste. You get to try the wine to see if it is OK, (or ready to drink). No messing with a decanter for 5 seconds that you now have to clean. No worries about washing out the original bottle.

If you do not want to serve the wine out of the bottle it aired in (because it is not the original bottle), simply pour the wine into a decanter IMMEDIATELY before service, or, if you prefer, funnel it into the original bottle which you have now cleaned and let dry for the length of time that the wine sat.  By that time, dried upside down, there should be no water left in the bottle and dilution won't be an issue.

Beta testing a new signature.
Randy Wigginton  Send Private Message
Randy Wigginton
Master of Wine
Master of Wine
Posts: 11794

--
10-23-2007 09:30 AM  
For me one of the purposes of double decanting is to have the wine back in the original bottle. Kind of silly, but I like looking at the bottle. I guess if I don't want to be geeky and follow Jimmy's advice, I should decant into another clean bottle, then just transfer the labels ;-)
JimmyV  Send Private Message
Central Connecticut
JimmyV
Wine Connoisseur
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5838

--
10-23-2007 09:36 AM  
Posted By Randy Wigginton on 10/23/2007 9:30 AM
 but I like looking at the bottle


That's what bottle coasters are for. I always place the bottle on the table, even if empty.
Beta testing a new signature.
Dave  Send Private Message
Dave
Wine Addict
Wine Addict
Posts: 6073

--
10-23-2007 09:55 AM  
Posted By JimmyV on 10/23/2007 9:36 AM
Posted By Randy Wigginton on 10/23/2007 9:30 AM
 but I like looking at the bottle


That's what bottle coasters are for. I always place the bottle on the table, even if empty.


The geekiness in wine lovers rears its ugly head again.
Al_ksyrah  Send Private Message
Al_ksyrah
Barrel Sampler
Barrel Sampler
Posts: 2346

--
10-23-2007 12:07 PM  
"For me one of the purposes of double decanting is to have the wine back in the original bottle."

I prefer the original bottle for the same reason. The amount of dilution from using a rinsed bottle is pretty tiny.

-Al
David Niederauer  Send Private Message
Los Gatos, CA
David Niederauer
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
Posts: 31272

--
10-23-2007 12:50 PM  
The only time I ever DD is when I'm taking the wine out to a restaurant or friend's house. 

It really looks geeky driving down the highway holding a decanter outside the window.  I mean, it is against the law to have an open container inside the car!

You want really outré, the geekiest decanting thing I think is the fact that one should never let anything metallic touch the wine let alone pouring it through a metal funnel where almost all of the wine is aldulterated.  One should only use a glass funnel!

JimmyV  Send Private Message
Central Connecticut
JimmyV
Wine Connoisseur
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5838

--
10-23-2007 02:53 PM  
Posted By Al_ksyrah on 10/23/2007 12:07 PM
"For me one of the purposes of double decanting is to have the wine back in the original bottle."

I prefer the original bottle for the same reason. The amount of dilution from using a rinsed bottle is pretty tiny.

-Al


Re-read the end of my earlier post. I am not suggesting that you not use the original bottle. You simply don't have to do the "second decant" back into that bottle right away. Do it just before service. The whole premise here is to do the loooong, slooooow aeration. While the wine is airing slowly, you have plenty of time to rinse and dry the original bottle to get it ready for service. We are talking about overnight decanting here, I think.  Or at least, several hours. The original point was that you needn't worry about having the airing done in the original bottle. ANY bottle will do, assuming you don't want to use a decanter.
Beta testing a new signature.
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 1 of 212 > >>


Active Forums 4.1
spacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacer
Related Links
spacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacer
 

spacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacer
Who's Online
MembershipMembership:
Latest New UserLatest:flightdaynight2
New TodayNew Today:3
New YesterdayNew Yesterday:0
User CountOverall:5554

People OnlinePeople Online:
VisitorsVisitors:65
MembersMembers:0
TotalTotal:65

spacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacerspacerspacer
spacer
Where Are They
MembersWhere Are They:
Anonymous User [2] :Home
Anonymous User [59] :Wine Forums
Anonymous User [1] :Wine Friends
Anonymous User [2] :My Profile
spacer
spacerspacerspacer
Copyright 2002-2011 by Revlus, Inc.
Privacy StatementTerms Of Use