Jeremy Matthew  
Barrel Sampler
Posts: 2067
 | | 07-05-2003 02:50 AM |
| Since I ventured onto the US wine forums, it is becomming evident that certain wineries are declining in quality. Is this "trend" (and I use that term in the loosest possible definition.) growing? Names that were previously of great quality are now being associated with less than stunning reviews and notes.
For example Mondavi Reserve Cabernet was a wine that I presumed was of particularly good order, especially considering Mondavi was one of the leaders in this varietal and region. Yet the last lot of tns relating to recent or younger vintages have been anything but the descriptors I would use for a "leading" wine.
Are there other examples- Cinq Cepage was another I have heard has been sliping (although that could just be vintage and previous hype.)? What are the combining factors? Greed, Ignorance or some other factor? | | |
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TCK
Barrel Filler
Posts: 1279
| | 07-05-2003 02:50 PM |
| Jeremy,
Those wines you mentioned would not be considered "cults". As for as Cinq Cepage goes it's always a nice wine put it has priced itself out of the market. When you could buy the stuff for thirty bucks it was a good deal. A few reviews from wine spectator and now it tries to compete in a leage where it's not so good.
Mondavi is a diffrent story. I think that Tim Mondavi did some tampering with the formula. I think I read that he is taking a "break" from wine making for a short time.
Both of these wines are made by huge companies and these "flagships" are not the cash cows. They make more money with "Good" $15 dollar wines then with $100 excellent wines. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts: 8568
| | 07-05-2003 05:13 PM |
| | The Cinq Cepages was never that good. Pure Wine Spectator driven hype for a wine that was rather pedestrian before the hype and remains so now. Neither of the two wines you mention are cult wines. Sadly the term has been so overused and bastardized that the original meaning of cult wine has been lost. When people claim there are cult wines from Canada or Greece one knows the term has lost all meaning. | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts: 15756
| | 07-05-2003 05:39 PM |
| These are the only true cults IMO:
Colgin
Maya
Screaming Eagle
Harlan Estate
Bryant
Grace Family
and to a lesser extent but still on the list:
Arajujo Eisele
Diamond Creek Lake Vineyard.
That's it. Just because a wine is good and in short supply doesn't make it a cult.
Feel free to contradict, add or subtract. | | | |
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S Frye
Grape Puncher
Posts: 787
| | 07-05-2003 07:06 PM |
| Davidn - I think you forgot Bressler 
You're right - there are a few on the cusp, but many need a few more years of good status to get up there (Blankiet, etc). Also, as an aside, I no longer consider Grace a cult wine (although you're right that it is), after drinking quite a few different vintages of it, I've always come away disappointed. Not bad wines, but certainly not worthy of the hype...........a wine to sell, not drink (although the bottles are sure purty). | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts: 15756
| | 07-05-2003 07:23 PM |
| Steve, you remind me.
It seems all the cults are Napa Cabs. I don't think that this has been called a cult but where is Marcassin? Certainly fits the cult definition in my mind. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts: 8568
| | 07-05-2003 07:56 PM |
| | The only people who think Blankiet is on the cusp of being a cult wine are people on the Blankiet mailing list. Two released vintages with ratings of 95, a 91-93 , and a 92-95 does not a cult wine make. | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts: 15756
| | 07-05-2003 08:35 PM |
| I think I should add Abreu and Jones Family. Maybe they're not "cult" but very close.
Are there any "potential" new "cults"?
Hourglass (I know, Dan...)
HL
Switchback Ridge Cab
and sure, Bressler (gotta get a barrel sample).
I don't know if we will ever go through a time like the late 90s where so much money was chasing so few labels.
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Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts: 2067
| | 07-06-2003 12:08 AM |
| Not taking away from what you guys are saying, (my knowledge is very limited on this topic.) but does Kistler qualify?
And going back to my original question, has the general standards of top US wines (Cults included I guess) stabilised , remained very high, or have new leaders come into the picture?
And if so what have the deciding factors been in your mind? | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts: 15756
| | 07-06-2003 05:40 AM |
| | Kistler is not even close. | | | |
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Budman
Philly Suburbs
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
Posts: 23636
| | 07-06-2003 11:44 AM |
| IIRC,
Kistler produces around 20000 cases of Chard per year.
Most cult productions are a LOT smaller.
Now maybe if they only produced a few hundred cases of chard and pinot... | | | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts: 12600
| | 07-06-2003 02:06 PM |
| | True. And, yet these chards are usually impossible to find in stores. Usually. Before this economy. Pinots...forgetaboutit. But, they are not a "cult" wine, no. | | | |
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Tom
Barrel Sampler
Posts: 2384
| | 07-10-2003 01:40 AM |
| OK, so what constitues a "cult" wine?
Demand?
Availability?
Quality?
Kistler gets remarkable scores, is unobtainable locally and has high demand, but isn't as cult.
Harlan, Screaming Eagle, etc. have great scoring power, are impossible to get and offer great quality. Clealy cult wines.
Looks to me like at quick glance, availablity is the determining factor so long as the other items are in place. A shortage of Arbor Mist would not immediately make it a cult wine. A novelty perhaps, but not a cult wine.
Dunn was at one time considered a cult. It ios now available more readily, the quality certainly has not diminished and it stills scores well.
Does it really matter? | | | |
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Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts: 2067
| | 07-10-2003 02:47 AM |
| Okay, but have the top level "Cult" wines or other Californian wines been recently replaced or challenged by other "lesser" collectable wines?
Using Screaming Eagle as an example(although this may be a bad example- has one of the other cult wines had this happen?).
Has Screaming Eagle dropped in quality but maintained its price because of it's exclusitivity? Or are other there examples where this has happened?
or have all of the cults retained their prices and quality since gaining such status? | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts: 8568
| | 07-10-2003 03:54 PM |
| | Screaming Eagle has not dropped in quality at all. | | | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts: 12600
| | 07-10-2003 04:22 PM |
| | Jeremy: Jean Philips just skipped 2000 because it did not meet her standards. | | | |
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skwid
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5452
| | 07-10-2003 04:56 PM |
| | Hmm, I'd like to hear the "real" story about this. I heard that someone made a mistake in the winery and screwed things up pretty badly. | | | |
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Bob Bressler 
Napa Valley
Wine Lover
Posts: 4891
| | 07-10-2003 05:32 PM |
| | I believe skwid to be correct | | | |
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skwid
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5452
| | 07-10-2003 05:48 PM |
| | Note that I heard the rumor about the winery screwup on Screaming Eagle before Parker "Sainted" Phillips for not producing a 2000 because it wasn't up to snuff. I had no idea if it was true at the time but if the wine wasn't going to be produced I would have bet on this. 2000 was typically as good or better than 1998 and SE produced wine in 1998. | | | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts: 12600
| | 07-10-2003 06:36 PM |
| | Live & learn. What's the screwup, do you know? Is it true that she sold the grapes anyway? | | | |
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