ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1210
 | | 06/25/2003 5:49 AM |
| Well damn. I am trying to find a third source of information to help decide this. So far I haven't found anything that is solid enough to use as countercounterpoint... (although everything I have found is leaning towards Stemor... sorry Jeremy...I am still looking though)
I have learned a heck of a lot based on this. I had to look up Oeschle and found that Jeremy is Dead-on with that one.. but Oeschle (essentially a measure for the weight of the must) does not necessarily correlate to Residual Sugar, as the wine-maker has control over that and can make a wine dry (trocken - 0-9 g/l ), medium dry (halbtrocken 9-18 g/l) and regular (fruity anything over 18 g/l) I have not found anything that indicates that there are limits to how much Residual Sugar is allowed in the wine.
I did find a cool chart on Wiest's site though.
http://www.germanwine.net/matrix.pdf
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Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067
| | 06/25/2003 5:53 AM |
| Smaug thats correct. But if a wine starts with a certain level of OE (the unfermented MUst) then it is impossible for it to suddenly gain sugar.
I'll leave this thread now. My appologies for the way it was heading. | | | |
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stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2813
| | 06/25/2003 5:55 AM |
| Smaug,
If you learn something out of this, so much the better.
(and don't get caught up in one point, like theoretical sugar. We could discuss that ad nauseum (and I think we already have!), but acidity and the odd flexibility of the German laws are equally important.)
This is a strangely enigmatic wine that once ruled the White Wine World, and lost its spot due to geopolitics -- and, in no small measure, goofy rules and arcane metrics.
Here's to Riesling once again claiming its rightful spot at the top of the White Wine World -- and welcome to the Light Side!  | |
Cheers, y'all | |
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ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 06/25/2003 7:41 PM |
| Ok...here's the scoop...there is no limit ot how much residual sugar may be in a QmP wine unless it is labelled trocken or halbtrocken.
Also, it is common to use sussreserve to increase the sugar content. In addition, even a TBA can be declassified down to spatlese. There are no prohibitions in German wine law against declassification. I have any number of bottles in my cellar that are labelled spatlese that are actually declassified auslese. I even have one particular bottling that is declassified BA down to spatlese.
BTW, I am a chairman of a chapter of the German Wine Society, so I do (with every bit of total certainty) know what I am talking about. | | | |
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stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2813
| | 06/25/2003 8:18 PM |
| Thanks for the note, Rieslingfan. It's good to hear confirmation from the GWS!
So, do you have any further input for our "Must Buy" thread? I want to start as early as possible with a targeted approach to gather WHAT I want for the best prices ...
Steve
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Cheers, y'all | |
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GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 06/25/2003 10:47 PM |
| Jeremy, I enjoy your posts and you are very knowledgeable. I've tried to follow your logic and failed to understand it. BTW, I do business with over 40 countries around the world and marvel at the differences in people and culture. I am always amazed at how the British can get caught up in the details, analyze it to death, and come out with the wrong answer - and do it convincingly!
All I know is that I don't like rieslings with under 20g/l of sugar. I also find the 2001 Haart Piersporter Goldtropfchen SPATLESE at 100 g/l to be much less sweeter than most Sauternes, which I attribute to the acid balancing the sugar.
Rieslingfan, good to hear that you are with The German Wine Society. How often you you have events in your chapter? The San Francisco Chapter has around 6-8 events/year, but most of them are dinners at restaurants. I really like my medallion. | | | |
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Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067
| | 06/25/2003 11:49 PM |
| Info back from a German winemaker - today. Couldn't copy and paste- so just typing the e-mail. My question to him was-
What is the maximum possible residual sugar potentially possible in a classified Spatlese? And why do the must weights of Auslese and Spatlese cross?
"
Jeremy,
What a complex question you have asked. I hope this information helps.
Spatlese- A Pradikat in the QMP quality wine category defined by German Wine Law. Spatlese means literally "late Harvest" adn the grapes should have been picked at least a week after a preliminary picking of less ripe grapes ,until the 1994 vintage Spatlese was the only Pradikat for which this was explicitly required. Specific must weights are laid down for each combination of vine variety and region and some were reduced for the 1994 vintage. These wines additonal ripeness and therefore potential alcohol make them an excellent candidates for Trocken wine making especially in Pflaz and Baden. Sweeter Spatlese often lack the body necessary to accompany sweeter foods, I would recommend drinking on their own.
Auslese- Meaning selected harvest (often a combination of late harvest and botrytis infected.)
I suppose technically the most a Spatlese (as harvested as Spatlese not as a higher tier and reduced) can reach is 82.5 grams residual sugar- but this wine (we made a wine of 78 grams residual in 1986 in a select bottling of one of our Goldtropfhcen.) is often out of balance with little room for acid PH. Jeremy, please keep in mind that of total available sugars for fermentation often up to %10 is completely unfermentable (they're simply resiliant sugars, in my mind- they have technical names but I will not go down that street.)resulting in a increased minimum RS somewhere in the mark of around 4 grams residual with some bizarre vintages where higher minimum RS is achievable even after full fermentation.
It works like this-
Harvested at such and such(Y) must weight (we call them oechsle)fermented to legal minimum limit for that classification( say X) leaves Z amount of potentail residual . However because of resiliant sugars Z is more variable than the other factors.
If we harvest classified Spatlese at it legal maximum 90oe ( this is about 12 beaume if I remember correctly) we must ferment it to at least %7. This leaves around 7 beaume (I think- it is a long time since I have had to remember this.) The equation will look like this- keep in mind this is over simplification to keep things simple (typical German.....yes?).
Y-X=Z
12-7=5 potential residual (note- at this point they are not called beaume.)5 beaume (one beaume = 16.5 grams of residual sugar give or take.)translates to 82.5gram residual and possible minimum of 0 RS. However as I said earlier this is unlikely because of those accursed resiliant sugars (some of these are even Glucose, something that normally converts!!)so think nearer 5 grams residual. Not too many winemakers enjoy making that high with their Spatlese- because it makes it harder to sell their Auslese!!! ( I think he was joking here, but I'm not sure.)
Now about Auslese and Spatlese- it could be worse- you could ask me about my family....(now I know he is joking- hes got seven brothers and four sisters!! Not to mention half brothers and sisters.). It is possible for grapes to be picked at Auslese levels and be called Spatlese, if it fits within the period allowed for picking of such grapes and does not reach higher levels of OE (over 110 I think for where we are.). If there is no to low infection of botrytis (like the 1997 wines I sent you)you may have the option of calling it Spatlese. Now Botrytis grapes can have lower must weights than late harvest, but because of the amounts of Botrytis and the regional allowances it is necessary to bottle an Auslese that has a lower Must weight than that of a Spatlese hence the allowance for crossover. Do you understand?
Regards and hope all is well- will see you in January.
Hatsch."
So Stemor, my appologies on the amount of potential RS in Spatlese. Also on the allowance of QmP wines ot be bottled below their tier.
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GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 06/26/2003 1:59 AM |
| | Jeremy, I enjoy your posts and read all of them. I was worried that you were reading one of those English books. | | | |
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stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2813
| | 06/26/2003 4:29 AM |
| Jeremy,
Apology noted and accepted, but not necessary. As I said, you know your stuff and I know you are passionate about wine. How can one hold THOSE qualities against anyone?
I still believe that you were quoting Trocken data, but am hopeful that you can parse through the info and come up with an answer ... as with any student, I am hoping to learn from this.
Cheers, Jeremy.
Steve
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Cheers, y'all | |
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GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 06/27/2003 1:30 AM |
| I just came back from my first tasting of the 2002 vintage. There were 159 wines, but I completely skipped Austria and only concentrated on the 45 spatlesen and up for the Germans. I'll post brief impressions of the wines elsewhere, but my first impression is that there are a lot of very good wines to choose from. Prices are either the same or slightly (10%?) higher than the 2001's. The only wines that I thought the 2002's were better the 2001's were the Leitz's (Rheingau). Of course this is a limited tasting and I did not get to try any Donnhoff's or the Darting auslese, which will come later in the year I presume.
Pinot Envy, even though the gold capsules are supposed to be better quality than the regular bottlings, I cannot see paying 2X-3X or more for quality improvement that is not decernable IMO. I also think that Prum (my former standard for German rieslings) were surpassed in 2001 by Christoffel, Fritz Haag and even Monchhof. I would not trade a 2001 Christoffel Urziger Wurzgarten auslese** (a $40 wine) for a 2001 J. J. Prum Wehlener Sonnenuhr auslese gold cap (a $67 wine). The former is impossible to get, while the latter is still available so that supports my views. For 2002, the Mosels are very good (and spotty in some places at the auslese level), but not spectacular like in 2001. | | | |
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Joseph Bembry
Wine Lover
Posts:4857
| | 06/28/2003 9:13 PM |
| Veering the topic askew slightly, but...
Is there any reason for me to cellar my '01 Kabinett bottles. I have about 5 or 6 bottles. 3 Selbach Oster Zelt Sonn, a couple Prum WS and a Strub. I'm trying to make more room in the cellar and I was thinking of holding all my Spatlese (only 4 bottles) and drinking up all the Kabinett this summer. Thoughts?
jb | | | |
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stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2813
| | 06/28/2003 9:17 PM |
| My tendency would be to drink 'em. The primary fruit and crisp acidity is delicious now -- and who knows if you would enjoy the petrolly character of a "well aged" Mosel Kabinett  .
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Cheers, y'all | |
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Joseph Bembry
Wine Lover
Posts:4857
| | 06/28/2003 9:21 PM |
| OK, one more question, Stevie Wonder. I'm going to Green Gables tomorrow night and will be bringing the Prum and a '01 L'angvile Chardonnay RRV. Which would you serve first, irrespective of the cuisine?
jb | | | |
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stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2813
| | 06/28/2003 9:33 PM |
| Never had that specific Chard and don't know what you're eating, jb, but I'd almost always go with the Riesling first.
That '01 JJ Prum Kabinett is more typical of a Spatlese, with generous residual sugar. I would think that it would stand up well by itself, allowing the Chard to pair with food. | |
Cheers, y'all | |
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Joseph Bembry
Wine Lover
Posts:4857
| | 06/28/2003 9:39 PM |
| Thanks. I rarely bring more than 1 white to dinner. I'll see what is being served, but I like your suggestion.
jb | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 06/28/2003 10:20 PM |
| | A dry white coming after a sweet white almost always does no favors at all for the dry white. | | | |
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GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 06/29/2003 4:41 PM |
| I was thinking the same thing. If you have the chard right after the Prum Kabinett (which drinks more like a spatlese), the chard may taste harsh and austere. If you drink the Prum like an aperitif and have enough food to clear you palette, it may be okay.
I actually like rieslings with food, but I know that I am an exception. Sometimes a first course or entree may have some sweet accents in it and that really affects how a wine tastes to me. I noticed at the last BAWE dinner, JO used the term "candied" for the Carrie's. I would be the last to notice any sweetness in a red wine, but this could be why I enjoy this wine with some foods where some others come off as austere with some dishes.
I'm struggling with the same problem for the July 5th even where we will be tasting 6 spatlesen, 6 auslesen, 6 reds (1991-1997) and 1970 Bordeaux's and CA cabs. The first three will be a sit down tasting and the last a walk around. We'll have plenty of great food, but I've toyed with the order several times and cannot think of the best solution. Since these are usually a 4-5 hour event, there is plenty of time.
I'm thinking that the best would be to have the spatlesen first, eat a lot of food, then have the red sit down, then the old red walk around, then have the auslesen last with dessert. The concern I have now if whether the spatlesen (many which drink like auslesen) may be hard to get out of the system, since it can linger for some time. | | | |
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skwid
Wine Connoisseur
Posts:5452
| | 06/29/2003 5:33 PM |
| | GATC, perhaps you should get out some putters and we can use up some time on the putting green out back. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Grape Picker
Posts:16
| | 06/29/2003 5:42 PM |
| Glad I didn't miss this post !! And thanks for all the information Steamor and Jermery  I've read a couple of books about German wines recently, and I thought I understand the RS and Oe thing quiet well. But when I read this tread:) , I realized that I wasn't really sure:) Your converstaion made me think throughtwhat I've read carefully and now I have a much better understanding:) Thanks again:)
And GATC Thanks for exchange the wine with me:) The Eurocave arrived before the summer heat and the Christoffel's wines you've exchanged with me are resting happily and peacfully on the displaying shelves:) Hopefully the 2002 will be as good | | | |
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GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 06/29/2003 6:14 PM |
| | Skwid, I have at least 3 putters. I can't believe than no one in our group has gone out and putted. I guess we are always too busy drinking, eating and talking. | | | |
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