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Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067
 | | 01/16/2004 10:53 PM |
| Wishbone,
By the time you put the wine in the fridge the crystals are already there. They just become more noticeable with chilling or aging. And only if the wine was made using a cold stop fermentation. UNfiltered wine doesn't always result in tartaric crystals, but often it results because CS fermentation is the easiest way to help against secondary fermenation.
Vintage Port is an example, where alcohol is used rather than CS fermentation to stabilise the wine. YOu sometimes find tartaric crystals in port but not always, as the appropriate chemicals are often caught up with other sedimentary chemicals and thuse doesn't form the crystals. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:27
| | 01/16/2004 11:58 PM |
| Jeremy, I don't think you understand my point. Yes, white wines may be cold stabilized to precipate out the tartrates, but those crystals are removed before bottling.
With an easy search I was able to back up my assertion. I'm attaching a link from Wine Specator that backs up my statement. For some reason it won't link directly, so you will need to cut and paste.
http://www.winespectator.com/Wine/Daily/Question/0[/url],1144,1321,00.html
Here is an excerpt, in case you can't get it. Italics are mine.
" ...Tartrate crystals typically form when a wine is chilled or stored in a cool environment. As the wine's temperature drops, the tartaric acid within it falls out of solution and forms these crystals much more readily.Tartrate crystals typically form when a wine is chilled or stored in a cool environment. This is why you may encounter tartrate crystals more frequently when drinking white wines than when drinking reds -- the process of chilling a white tends to bring out the tartrate crystals.
Because these crystals can be of concern to the uninformed consumer, many modern wineries (especially the makers of inexpensive whites) refrigerate their wines before bottling, then filter out the tartrate crystals which have formed. Other winemakers decide not to subject their wines to this treatment, choosing instead to let nature take its course in the bottle..." | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Destemmer
Posts:56
| | 01/18/2004 9:35 PM |
| Since I am in the business of providing filtration to wineries, I've avoided replying to this thread because I am biased in favor of fining, racking and filtering.
All I know is that I deal with some of the top wineries with high scores promoted on this board (rightly so) and most of them filter their wines. Many of the best winemakers swear proper filtering does not detract from the quality but other winemakers swear the opposite.
My simple view is that if the best of the best disagree then how few end users are there that can really detect a drop off in quality with fining and filtering.
If the winemaker really believes leaving the wine alone improves the end product, then great. I just know in some cases putting "unfined and unfiltered" on the label is partly a marketing tool used to imply better quality when in fact it may not be. | | | |
| Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067
| | 01/19/2004 1:33 AM |
| Tartrates form equally in white or red. The crystals you are refering to are those that can be seen. Often in red wine what is refering to as sediment often contains large amounts of Tartrates. Chilling a wine help form them faster and larger..but they are already there, my point being that wines Cold Stop fermented will tend to produce them faster had nothing to do with them being chilled or not after they are bottled.
Even filtered wines can have Tartrates, but the method of tartrate stabilisation play s a key factor in how long, or if at all it will they form. Filtering is but one method of Tartrat stabilisation.
Finely ground pottasium can also be added to the wine then the wine is cooled the tartrates form in less than ten minutes and can be removed with out necessary filter but rather by run off, so the wine can still be unfiltered.
Chilling a wine before or after bottling the process up, but does not produce them. While I appreciate and understand what you saying about young whites being chilled (and thus the crystal appear to be more often found in white rather than red), it is a misleading thought to presume that reds don't contain them.
Infact because more reds are prone to fewer forms of filtration and spend more time with skin contact than white it is more likely that a red wine will contain them rather than a white.
I do understand what you are saying. I am saying chilling a wine has little to do with whether they will form or not, it just helps them if the potential was there in the first place.
Filterguy,
I agree about the marketing thing. Up until ten years ago most people were just plain ignorant of the decision and its purpose. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:27
| | 01/19/2004 2:19 PM |
| Jeremy, at least it's nice to know we can have a disagreement on a point and not result to name calling, as on other boards where I also post. I've only been coming here for a week now, but I'm already impressed with the members here. I just wish there were more.
Filterguy, I agree, there are MANY great filtered and fined wines. I'm all for doing whatever it takes to make a wine show its best. If, in the decision of the winemaker, it means f&f, then do it. If they think it is unnecesssary, then don't do it. I prefer as little manipulation as necessary, but sometimes it is necessary. | | | |
| Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13711
| | 01/19/2004 2:23 PM |
| Quote:
... I just know in some cases putting "unfined and unfiltered" on the label is partly a marketing tool used to imply better quality when in fact it may not be. ...
Filterguy-- Good point. | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
| Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13711
| | 01/19/2004 2:24 PM |
| Quote:
... but I'm already impressed with the members here. I just wish there were more....
I keep trying to get more folks to check things out over here, dude. I think all wine boards have their place, I'm just spreading the gospel of VinoCellar. | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:27
| | 01/19/2004 2:27 PM |
| Quote:
I keep trying to get more folks to check things out over here, dude. I think all wine boards have their place, I'm just spreading the gospel of VinoCellar.
I think I got this site off your signature on WS. I kept on seeing it when I was on that board and finally decided to check it out. | | | |
| Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067
| | 01/19/2004 11:48 PM |
| Wishbone,
I think its all about respect. As someone who endevours to listen and respect everyones opinion, I think name calling is unnecessary in getting an opinion across.
Besides I enjoyed reading your comments and points, rather than felt afronted by them. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Stomper
Posts:197
| | 01/20/2004 11:08 PM |
| Greetings:
Actually, I'd be curious as to what wines are fined/filtered and considered among the best in the world. I'm guessing a lot of BDX, but honestly I have no idea.
Can anyone give me some examples of wines in BDX, CA, and Australia that are fined/filtered and are typically considered the best in the world? Similarly, examples of top in those regions that are unfined/unfiltered?
Thanks!
Cheers,
Arvin | | | |
| Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067
| | 01/20/2004 11:40 PM |
| This is a very hard question to answer simply because many wineries and wines have differing levels of fining and filtering vintage to vintage. In good years the levels of filtering may be lessened while in poorer years they maybe increased. However below I have listed some examples. But even they have changed in certain vintages.
Examples of Good wines that are unfiltered-
Pierre Andre CdP
Lucien Barrot CdP
Perrin CdP
Domaine Santa Duc Gigondas
Most of Burgundy has levels of minor fining and unfiltered wines.
Bordeaux- Most Chateau have expiriemented with filtered and unfiltered wines as well as differing levels of fining. From great vintages like 1990 large chunks of Bordeaux were completely unfiltered.
Aussie
Henschke has expiriemented with it also according to Haliday
Mountmary and others.
Examples of wines that are more filtered and fined-
Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay
The problem is that there are so many combinations in between. It is rare to find a winery that sits singularly with Unfiltered and Unfined and completely fined and filtered. | | | |
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