Dr_Tannin  
Barrel Sampler
Posts: 2498
 | | 10-19-2003 05:34 AM |
| Decanting is a ritual for many people. I don't understand why.
This makes sense for older wines where sediment is weighed out of the supernatant pour.
But for the life of me I don't know the science behind why people uses it for younger wines. This makes me truly skeptical of the value of early decanting, which may be a perceptual rather than a real phenomenon. Interestingly, Emile Peynaud has written that there is no value and that it is in fact detrimental to the wines.
Theoretically, exposure to air and thus oxygen could hasten oxidation of anthocyanins and polymerization of tannin acids. Over many years time in bottle, this gives us a brown hue and precipitated tannin and sediment. And it changes the aroma and flavor of the wine. But can this actually happen in 2-12 hours with decanting? The amount of air exposure does not seem far greater than what's in the bottle so my guess is not. The splash and swirl are convectionary and could release volatiles, but it seems almost certain to make no difference to chemical compounds in the wine because the dissolved partial pressure of the oxygen would not rise so dramatically. So I'm left to guess the following:
Is there a temperature difference in warmer room air than barrel or cellar that is sufficient to cause enough of an increase in solubilized oxygen to generate enough tannin polymerization that our taste buds sense some less bitter quality, though clearly the sedimentary and hue visual aspects of the bottle remain unchanged?
Are we sidetracked by the presence of volatiles exhorted by the decanting process into thinking the wine liquid itself has changed?
Or does it do nothing. We are fooled by thinking that decanting is anything different than letting wine sit in a glass? Is a decanter simply a big wine glass? In which case we could save our money and not buy silly goose decanters or talk about how long we decanted this wine or that wine.
Any one have any science on this??? How about educated guesses? | | |
|
|
David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts: 15756
| | 10-19-2003 05:43 AM |
| DrT,
Another SWOOSH>>>>>>>>>>.
.............. ............
I am not much of a decanting person but once in a while I will splash decant a very young wine and then drink it right away. I'm not sure what you said but IMO it does help at least a little. | | | |
|
Dr_Tannin
Barrel Sampler
Posts: 2498
| | 10-19-2003 05:51 AM |
| Didn't mean to professor anyone. Hoping some science could validate it's use and the vintners and winemakers here could help me out.
Decanting a young wine has done little for me different than letting it sit in a glass. An expensive Erlenmeyer flask or worse. Makes me think it's BS. | | | |
|
Budman
Philly Suburbs
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
Posts: 23633
| | 10-19-2003 12:38 PM |
| Dr T...
I love it when you talk dirty!!  | | | |
|
ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts: 11169
| | 10-19-2003 12:55 PM |
| | Dr. T, skipping the science, I can tell you for a fact that wines that have not reached their prime will definitely benefit from decanting. If you remember at the Syrah/Shiraz dinner in NJ last year, towards the end I poured you a taste of the 1999 Martinelli Reserve Pinot Noir that had been splash decanted three hours earlier. That wine was far superior to the same wine immediately after opening. Call it oxidation if you will, it works, most especially with young Pinot Noir. I have numerous examples I could cite. | | | |
|
ChangeMe
Grape Sorter
Posts: 307
| | 10-19-2003 04:03 PM |
| | believe me i am no expert on decanting, but as most of you know i am very new to the game and most of my wine is very young. i have no idea what happens in the decanter all i can say is that it tastes better to me after it has been in a decanter for 3 hrs versus left in the bottle to breath. over the last 1 1/2 years i have drank some 300-400 bottles of wine and only a handful were old enough not to need decanting. | | | |
|
Eric White
San Ramon, CA
Advanced Sommelier
Posts: 9430
| | 10-19-2003 04:47 PM |
| Fascinating post Dr. T. All I can add to reiterate what Board-O said - that in my own experience it makes a tremendous difference. I hope those more qualified will chime in with the science behind it.
Strictly from an observational point of view all of us here are capable of the simple experient of taking two of the same bottle of wine, decanting one and not the other, and then tasting them blind. | | | 2008: the end of an error | |
|
Budman
Philly Suburbs
VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire
Posts: 23633
| | 10-19-2003 04:52 PM |
| My experience as a relative newbie is along the same lines as anthonyiez, particularly
with the 01 Oz wines. A couple hours in the decanter and they go from brooding to explosive.
If I popped a cork and watched it evolve over a few hours, I'm sure the last glass will yield
similar results, but the first 2 glasses often prove to be disappointing. I don't want to waste
those first two glasses! | | | |
|
ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts: 11169
| | 10-20-2003 02:01 AM |
| | The experiment i'd suggest is to carefully decant a wine, even a young one, so as to minimze aeration, then taste immediately and every 5-10 minutes for three or more hours. I can't believe that a young sturdy Pinot Noir will need less than two hours. | | | |
|
Wineaux
New Orleans, LA
Wine Thief
Posts: 2804
| | 10-20-2003 03:23 AM |
| Great topic, and one I've pondered alot lately, especially when it comes to pinot noir. Some CA PNs clearly benefit from decanting (the '99 Martinelli Reserve, following Boardo's advice, is the most obvious example I can think of). The '01 Martinelli Moonshine Ranch (which is beside me now) seems to share this characteristic. Yet, Central Coast PNs I've had lately such as Loring, Siduri, and Melville, have not needed any significant air time to show their true form. Furthermore, I'd suggest that the vast majority of Burgundies also do not need decanting (Parker and others say this about Burgundy).
Your thoughts and advice? Is there a real pattern here that one can reliably follow? | | | |
|
Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts: 13767
| | 10-20-2003 12:41 PM |
| | I am not sure decanting does or does not help. My own anecdotal evidence tends to make me believe it does help, but that is just me. Maybe the aroma of the wine as it sits in the pitcher/decanter (which makes it easily much more swirlable) makes me giddy. Either way, I am usually way too impatient to wait long. | | | www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
|
ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts: 11169
| | 10-20-2003 01:00 PM |
| | Too impatient to wait long? Why do you think God invented white wine? | | | |
|
Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts: 13767
| | 10-20-2003 01:49 PM |
| | | | | www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
|
David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts: 15756
| | 10-20-2003 07:39 PM |
| BoardO,
Never looked at it that way. Makes sense now. | | | |
|
ChangeMe
Grape Sorter
Posts: 307
| | 10-20-2003 10:20 PM |
| | this hobby is teaching me to learn patience. by the way there is an article in this months WS about decanting. | | | |
|
Bradley Molzen
VinoCellar.com Admin
Bayonne, NJ
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5054
| | 10-21-2003 03:32 AM |
| | It's funny how when I look online for information on decanting, it's normally said to decant older wines just to remove sediment. It's rare I see them say to decant wines to air out a young wine. Strange, but that's what I mostly do... as I have very few old wines. | | | If you drink wine, you get smarter.... | |
|
TCK
Barrel Filler
Posts: 1279
| | 10-23-2003 04:36 PM |
| | I must say, I think every person who drinks wine needs to do a test with new wines where they decant one bottle and not the other in a blind test. You will be surprised at the results. I have said it many times before - I was flamed then and I'll get flamed here - decanting ain't all it's cracked up to be. I've done the test. | | | |
|
ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts: 11169
| | 10-23-2003 08:51 PM |
| | TCK, try drinking a young Martinelli Pinot Noir shortly after opening and then decant the same bottle and try it two hours later. | | | |
|
TCK
Barrel Filler
Posts: 1279
| | 10-23-2003 09:05 PM |
| Board-O,
You have made that statement before and I take your word on it. In fact I make sure my Pinot's stick around for a few hours before they are gone.
It is a fact the Oxygen will cause a chemical reaction in a wine. The question here is if that is always a good thing. Many times decanting can bring out flavors that push the wine out of balance. Oak often becomes more powerful with decanting. At the same time decanting can allow certain sulfer smells that are trapped in the bottle from fermentation to escape (a good thing).
My theory is that while some wines do get better with air time, on a percentage basis this is not the case. The flip side is that just as many wines taste less appealling as those that become more appealing. It's a crap shoot.
15 minutes is good to let foul odors blow off - then track the life of the bottle for a possible sweet spot like the one Board-O mentioned with Martinelli. | | | |
|
GATC
Wine Lover
Posts: 4740
| | 10-23-2003 11:00 PM |
| Almost all of the wines I drink improve in the glass. Therefore, although I don't decant that much, I've always thought that it would be helpful.
I usually drink a bottle over 2-4 days, so most get a lot of air time by the time I drink them. Most are better the 2nd day and I attribute that to aeration.
Of course, most of the wines I drink can age 10-30 years, so the type of wines you drink is certainly a factor IMHO. | | | |
|