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Subject: German Riesling question

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GATC

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420

06/23/2003 4:55 AM
Gewurztraminer is the classic choice for spicy dishes. However, I've found the 2001 German rieslings to be so intense that I love it with pretty spicy food.

Jeremy Matthew User is Offline

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067

06/24/2003 12:31 AM
Stemor, I think if you look at Spatlese you will see that the fully fermented juice finishes on between 7%-8% alchohol (otherwise it ain't Spatelese- %7 is the minimum). Translating to 7-8 beaume (and thus 14.4 brix degrees.) thus , however considering that Spatlese must be picked at least 90 oe degrees and less than 100 oe degrees (which translates to about 21.7 to 23.5 brix) results in a differential leaving 6.2 grams residual (how we measure them down here.) hence a drier wine- thats tastes sweeter because the PH and alcohol are better balanced. IE there are chardonnays that have much higher RS but don't taste sweet yet technically are, simply because they have high alcohol and acids. Less than 2 grams RS= Very dry to bone dry 2-6 grams RS= Dry wine 6-12 gram RS= Medium Dry 12-18 gram RS= Medium 18-24 gram RS= medium sweet 24+ = sweet Scoring program for most Wine competitions down here. On a completely differant thought there is a German Riesling that has been picked at 326 degree oe ( about 43 beaume or 78 brix.). It was picked in 1971 in Pfalz and in 1993 had still only reached 4.5 % alcohol, and still illegal under German Wine law to be labelled as wine yet. It ha to reach %5.5 before it is legal.

stemor

Collierville, TN

Wine Thief
Posts:2817

06/24/2003 2:50 AM
Jeremy, I got thinking about your position and I think I understand, as you have clarified in your follow-up by mentioning "fully fermented". You're talking about Trocken, aren't you? The viscous style of German wine that we generally get here in the US has been halted prior to completion of fermentation, thus maintaining the high sugar level (Spatlese could have 20-40 g/l and up, balanced with high acidity levels). The sugar and acid counterbalance each other wonderfully, given a rich mouthfeel that, due to the proper acid levels, balance out perfectly to avoid SEEMING either cloyingly sweet or screechingly acidic.

Cheers, y'all

Jeremy Matthew User is Offline

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067

06/24/2003 7:35 AM
Sorry Stemor, Not Trocken. What I am saying is that Spatlese must be harvested at 76oe - 90 oe At least 7% alcohol after fermentation. Because of this it must have between 0 grams residual(but the alcohol would be nearer %13) and 9 grams residual (based on 100 oe and fermented to %7 alcohol.). Otherwise it isn't Spatlese. It is impossible for Spatlese under German Wine Law to have a residual sugar over 9 grams residual. Otherwise it is A) Auslese (maximum 100oe or 13 beaume) or B) illegal and thus not classified.

stemor

Collierville, TN

Wine Thief
Posts:2817

06/24/2003 1:22 PM
Jeremy, The figures that you are quoting aren't right -- at least, not according to the cases of German Riesling and Scheurebe that I have that are labelled "Spatlese" and "Auslese" ... nor do they pass the common sense test. A liquid solution with 9 g/l -- or approximately 0.9% sugar -- clearly would not have the viscous nature that we all know and love. Rather, it would be like water. In fact, this sugar level is typical of a "Trocken", or "dry", Riesling. Now, ACIDITY of 9 g/l I could believe! Do you have an online reference that you can point me to so I can do some reading and comparing of data without bothering all these other nice people?

Cheers, y'all

skwid

Wine Connoisseur
Posts:5452

06/24/2003 2:57 PM
Jeremy, while the figures you quote may or may not be correct I believe it is legal under the german laws to "declassify" higher weighted musts to lower levels. Thus grapes rated as Auslese may be used for Spatlese or Kabinet level wines.

stemor

Collierville, TN

Wine Thief
Posts:2817

06/24/2003 3:56 PM
Jeremy, If you haven't already, take a look at the 2003 Terry Thiese catalog, here. You'll find a good but brief glossary on page 35 of 180. Here you will find the definition of TROCKEN (0 to 9 g/l of residual sugar) and HALBTROCKEN (9 to 18 g/l). Also a good discussion of acidity and how it balances the sugar in the wine. For an example that REALLY contradicts the numbers that you are quoting, try going to page 105/180 (not numbered 105, but the actual 105th page in this file). Here you'll find one shining example, although there are many others contained in this catalog: Herbert Messmer 2001 Burrweiler Schawer RieslingSpatlese (cat# GMS-077). Originally at100 Oechsle and 8.5 g/l acidity, it wound up with91 g/l of residual sugar. These darned Germans sure do make wine drinking tricky, don't they?

Cheers, y'all

GATC

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420

06/24/2003 10:57 PM
I noticed that most of the 2001 spatlesen that I really liked had around 50-60 g/l RS. Anything under 20 g/l is too dry for my taste. Actually, 10-15 g/l tastes bone dry to me. I must have a sweet tooth.

Jeremy Matthew User is Offline

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067

06/24/2003 11:52 PM
Skwid, Declassification is the choice of including optional information and not labeling its specific QmP level. However it is compulsory to state whether it is Landwein, Tafelwein, QbA and QmP and also the region of cultivation or orgin of a Tafelwein. Qualitatswein also must have an official inspection number and lot number. ie so a Spatlese could be picked but they could just decide to label it Qmp. They couldn't pick a Auslese and label it a Spatlese (unless it is in the cross-over oe area - see below) Optional information does not allow a Auslese to be labelled a Spatlese or vice versa(dependant on OE levels). It allows the inclusion of precise identification of Area ( GloBlage.) the names of up two varieties utilised in making the wine, the year the wine was made (can you believe that is optional!) an indication of whether the wine was bottled by the maker, the name of the vineyard and a description of flavour ie; dry, medium dry etc.... Stemor and GATC, According to the Oxford Companion to Wine and Andre Domine's "Wine" - his section of German Wine Law it is impossible for wine to recieve more than 9 grams residual simply because Spatlese is picked between 83-90 oe. 90 oe left and just pressed is 21 brix give or take a point degree. If picked above 90 oe it technically isn't Spatlese it is Auslese. According to the above books the revision of the 1971 laws (still being revised at the moment but started in 1991) has made a push for more classification not less. The 2001 vintage was so good in the lower tiers and not the higher (IE above Auslese) that classification was dropped for compulsory labeling to allow areas excluded from QmP classification to gain the benefits of QmP classification. ie regions such as Wurttemberg and Franconia were able to produce QmP wines for the first time in a very long time- the OE was high enough and the acids low enough (normally this doesn't happen in said regions.) Direct quote from Andre Domine refering to wines after the 1970s when more Dry wines were popular in Germany-- " It was not long before winemakers remembered the criteria for wine of good quality: a full flavour and right balance. A SLIGHT amount of Residual Sugar is now tolerated, and the popularity of edelsuB wines is growing." EdelsuB (prounounced Eee-dell- Suisss) is botrytis wine. Spatlese cannot by law contain Botrytis of any level. " The majority of wines produced fall into the two last named categories (refering to Qmp and QbA.). Unlike French wine laws, its German equivilent does not classify wines of geographcial basis, but distinguish's between QbA only on the basis of the sugar content of the grape must." Tafelwein 44- 50oe Landwein 47-53oe QbA- 50-72oe (these three wines are the only wines with sugar legally allowed to be added.) Kabinett 67-82oe Spatlese 76-90oe Auslese 83-100 oe (note the cross over.) Beerenauslese 110-128 oe Trockenbeerenauslese 150-154 oe Eiswein 110-128oe Note the large gaps between Auslese and Beerenauslese and Trockenbeerenauslese. I will read the pamphlet - thanks Stemor. But I assure these are the German Wine Laws.

stemor

Collierville, TN

Wine Thief
Posts:2817

06/25/2003 12:12 AM
Jeremy, You are using mighty absolute language, demonstrating your certainty. I can respect that, but it doesn't make you any less wrong. Note the ^^^above^^^ examples of REAL Spatlese, not a 30+ year old book from Britain. Spatlesen DO occasionally contain some botrytis, they ARE all over 18 g/l residual sugar unless they are Trocken or Halbtrocken (dryer styles preferred by Germans and perhaps other Europeans, including the British authors?), they ARE picked at levels that might qualify them for Auslesen IF THE WINERY SO CHOSE to classify it as such with all other criteria being met. Note that the acid is high, as I've been saying all along, which is what makes the high sugar contents come into balance. I'm not sure who is feeding you the crap, Jeremy, but either your sources are wrong or you've misunderstood it terribly. I have enjoyed about 5 cases of the 2001 Rieslings so far and have 30+ to go, and not ONE single bottle has met the definitions that you have discussed. I don't mean to be antagonistic, but people are trying to learn about German wines and I'm trying to help them. The disinformation that you have promulgated isn't helping to clear the confusion. Please either read the Thiese catalog or do a Google search -- something. You'll quickly find that there is NO support for your information. I don't blame you, because I believe you are reading and comprehending well. I think your information is both outdated and wrong (even when it was current). After this is over, we will hopefully all be a bit better informed ... and still friends. Cheers, Jeremy!

Cheers, y'all

Jeremy Matthew User is Offline

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067

06/25/2003 12:25 AM
Another point,considering that most Saurternes contain less than 40 grams residual sugar (or 4%) I think the discovery that viscous wines like Auslese having %2 (or 20 grams residual) with lower acidity than Saurterne, is completely in the realms of expectation. The reason being that acidity can reduce viscousity just like alcohol can add to it- look at the big silky chards with only 4 grams residual but 13.5% alcohol and lower but fatter acids also (lactic acids to be precise.). I also have a feeling that we may be discussing two very differant forms of measurement. For me Residual sugar= the total quanitiy of sugars unfermented in the finished wine. This may include both fermentable sugars and small amounts of those sugars which are not readily fermented by typical wine yeasts. Residual sugar in wine is measured in grams of total sugars per litre of wine and can vary between 1g/l and 25g/l or more. Wines with a residual content of less than 2g/l such as the vast majority of red and whites are described as dry. It is almost impossible to find wines with less than 1g/l because some sugars are impervious to wine yeasts. On the other hand many wines with a sugar level of 25g/l may taste dry because the sweetness is offset by the acids and tannins. In theory 100g of sugar should yield 51.1 g of alcohol but in practise this is nearer 47 g alcohol. Between 16 and 17 g/l of sugar is required to ferment to 1% alcohol. Wines such as Hungarian Tokaji can reach incredibly high RS, taking up to thirty years to ferment because of the unstability of the yeasts. This applies to most wines with an RS over 50g/l. However inclusion of full botrytis cinera in certain varietals can stabilise the wines- thus the likes of Saurterne, Vouvray and Beerenauslese are easily fermented in a shorter period of time.

stemor

Collierville, TN

Wine Thief
Posts:2817

06/25/2003 12:45 AM
Jeremy, Check out this article onYquem: the 1994 has 122 GRAMS PER LITRE OF RESIDUAL SUGAR. Yes, we are talking about the same measurement: remaining sugar in an aqueous solution, represented in g/l, where the water is generally assumed to weigh 1000 g/l. This allows you to convert from g/l to % by simply moving the decimal point one place to the left. Therefore, 122 g/l = 12.2% residual sugar in the above Yquem example. Also, the viscosity of ethanol is lower than water ... higher EtOH would actually act to REDUCE viscosity of an aqueous solution like wine. Trust me, I performed many experiments on this in my labs on my way to a ChemE degree .

Cheers, y'all

Jeremy Matthew User is Offline

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067

06/25/2003 1:03 AM
Having just finished reading the pamphlet I have this to say Stemor- Terry is talking about all things including Alcohol, acids and sugars when he is refering to g/l, when he is discussing total G/l in the wines. This is evident on page 24 under EXTRACT. He is not at that point refering to RS alone- I qoute in referance to G/L "You can measure it in a lab, and all German wine carrying an AP, has it's extract measured. The average reading would be somewhere in the low 20's- speaking in g/l now. I'd expect to see Riesling QbA or Kabinett with 20-24 g/l extract, or 2.2 and 2.4 percent. I'd look for spatlese to be a little higher, Ausles still higher, and the stickies quitre high, up to 40 and even 50 g/l." I qoute " Please note that the impression of sweetness is created by not by sugar alone, but the interaction of sugar, acid and extract." Stemor, Based on this alone you can see that a wine with 50 g/l is not Spatlese according to that very pamphlet. He himself has said so. 50/gl is according to him amongt the maximum that a top TBA should have. That si correct. What you are saying is not. So henceforth a Kabinett of coarse will contain 24 gl. Because it was harvested at that level. So to will a Spatlese have 20 gl and sweeter wines at 40-50g/ not the rates you were mentioning. If it maintains 7% alcohol 9 RS the remainder is made up through citric and tartaric acids (often caused by cold stabilisation utilised by many German wine makers.),not unreasonable amounts considering- check out the comments on acidity. The Oxford companion is the 1998 edition as edited by Robinson. Not a 30 year old book. Trocken is a standardised label (such as sweet or dry) not a classfication and hence is not necessary (it is optional as I described above.)

Jeremy Matthew User is Offline

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067

06/25/2003 1:04 AM
Stemor I said Saurternes was one of those wines that was able to go over 50 RS because the varietal yeasts and bot cinerae stabilise the wine. My qoute of 40 RS is a generalised comment and I am sure there are large numbers of such wines that exceed 100 grams residual I can think of three right now. Hungarian Tokaji0 ASZU Essencia Aussie Tokay Most 98 Saurterne and Barsac edit: Alcohol is lighter than water but wine is a combination of various elements. Alcohol is naturally bonded in the flavoural groups- hence it adds to the viscosity and doesn't lighten the wine. It floats across the top as you know hence we swirl our glass's to allow air to access the wine. But we also know that alcohol is evident in the wine we taste. It adds viscosity because the wine is made up of so many acids and oils (which are also technically lighter than water.). because the H20 is bonded to these elements certain flavourols add viscosity. Sugar is one, alcohol another. Hence 14% alcohol wines are often quite textured in the palate- to qoute many a tn for %14 chard- silky.

stemor

Collierville, TN

Wine Thief
Posts:2817

06/25/2003 1:37 AM
Jeremy, I don't know what to say. I've tried gently, I've tried a little more forcefully, and I've failed. You are wrong, on every count. You were talking about how Spatlesen and other German wines are low on Sugar and even lower on Acidity. I have given you REAL examples of REAL wines that disprove every number you have thrown out. I have understood every measurement that you have tried to use, and have been able to refute each and every number that you have tossed out. I am not quoting from a book -- I'm a Chemical Engineer with a cellar full of German Riesling. I understand the measurements and regularly drink the wines. Note your quote above, taken out of context: Quote: I qoute " Please note that the impression of sweetness is created by not by sugar alone, but the interaction of sugar, acid and extract." What Terry is saying is that these wines don't seem to be nearly as sweet as they really are. The high sugar content (MUCH higher than your sources say are legal!) are offset by the acidity (MUCH higher than you think is in German Riesling). Taken individually these forces would be painful or nauseating. Taken together, they make for a wonderfully balanced, standard-setting wine. Remember your certainty about <90 Oe in Spatlesen? WRONG. No Botrytis? Wrong. Acidity levels? Wrong. Inability of wineries to declassify Auslesen to Spatlesen? Wrong. Residual sugar levels in German wines? Wrong. Alcohol increasing viscosity -- and "floating" on the top of an aqueous solution? Wrong. I won't even touch the "... acids and oils are lighter than water". It's too broad a generalization for me to refute -- and for you to make. There is no part of the chemistry of German Rieslings that you have gotten correctly (as we understand it up here in the Northern Hemisphere), and I know you are a smart guy. I'm wondering now if basic chemical principles invert when one crosses the equator? I think you need to stop reading whatever you are reading and start DRINKING some of this wonderful juice. CAREFULLY read the literature from people that actually understand of which they speak. You have much learning (and, more importantly, UNlearning) to do on this juicy subject. (sorry if I sound harsh. I'm not trying to be, just trying to clear up an obvious bit of misinformation. We are here to learn and share, and I hope that the efforts contained herein are taken in that spirit.)

Cheers, y'all

Jeremy Matthew User is Offline

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067

06/25/2003 2:09 AM
So tell me Stemor How does a wine with 50 G/l (including acids and alcohol) have more RS than total grams per litre of alcohol, sugar and acid as revised by that Pamphlet on page 24 under EXTRACT? As according to Terry - not my sources- yours. You are saying that it has more sugar than it was harvested with? Are you saying it was added (possible with unclassfied wine but not with QbA and above.)? I agree with everything that pamphlet has said, I do not agree with your theory. I'm sorry you think I am wrong and the Oxford Companion is wrong, and that Andre Domine doesn't know what he is talking about, or that my information relating to the German Wine Law is wrong. I have not fabricated anything, and I'm sure neither has Jancis Robinson or Andre Domine. With regard to what Terry is saying, it actually validates what I am discussing. Stemor you may have a cellar full of German riesling- you're not alone. So to do I and not just 2001. I've been collecting German riesling for a long time. In fact in the WS TN archives you will find notes on 1990 FWG wines I have tasted. I've traveled to Germany to find my family (one day Revlis may even publish my article I wrote on this very topic.), I don't have a degree in Chemistry- I have done six vintages in NZ, with some top wine makers. I'm presently writing my dissertation for my MW on this very topic- well actually German terroir relating to GloBage- The WSET is yet to be set up here in NZ. I guess either all my sources are completely wrong or you've missed what Terry is saying. Either way lets agree to disagree.

stemor

Collierville, TN

Wine Thief
Posts:2817

06/25/2003 2:40 AM
Jeremy, I hope you learn something about actual wine, not traveling, before completing your thesis. Otherwise, you will be embarrassed. You can ignore facts and misread what Terry, and the German wine laws, are saying. You can ignore labels, metrics, and helpful guidance. Please just don't refuse to learn when you think you already know the answer, because you currently don't I won't agree to disagree, because this isn't a difference of opinions. It's you ignoring facts as presented to you because they clash with what you think you know. Remember, the Earth WAS found to be round, the Moon is NOT made of cheese, and German Rieslings (as with the excerpts already liberally provided to you) do NOT conform to the parameters that you contend they do. This exchange, which I hoped we could easily gotten past, appears to be doing nothing but prolonging some embarrassing misinformation. I'll stick with what I know, and hope that you and others will eventually come to understand what exactly in in German Riesling. Cheers, friend. <edit> PS: A link to your information, so it might be subjected to some critical review, would still be of interest. In your process of paraphrasing you might have (!) missed something, and I'd like to help find it before someone else catches your mistake(s). </edit>

Cheers, y'all

Wineaux

New Orleans, LA

Barrel Filler
Posts:1414

06/25/2003 2:50 AM
Both of you are way too knowledgeable regarding wine for either of you to be flat out wrong. I'm also learning alot from this discussion. Somewhere, something is getting lost in the translation, but my head hurts too much from trying to keep up with your posts. I'm going to back off this topic for a while, reread your posts later, and suggest the two of you do the same. I'm sure a common understanding exists somewhere.

Jeremy Matthew User is Offline

Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067

06/25/2003 3:01 AM
Stemor, Read the Oxford companion to WIne. Its all there and directly qouted. its not available on-line. I had better learn about wine eh? Nice one.......

stemor

Collierville, TN

Wine Thief
Posts:2817

06/25/2003 3:18 AM
Jeremy, PM coming your way. I'm not trying to emasculate you, just trying to help people learn. (edit)I'm thinking, as I've commented before, that Jeremy is using European standards for dry Riesling as some Global standard. As we know from drinking wines available at least in the US, and with examples presented above, the "rules" that Jeremy has presented are not rules. Clearly, every "rule" that he has offered has been contradicted, every "fact" becomes a variable. So, as Jones said some time ago ... perhaps German Riesling will not catch on in the general population because of the complicated nature of the beast. If people that (seem to) understand the wine can't agree what the heck the wine actually is, how can newbies? Frustrating, eh? (end edit) Steve

Cheers, y'all

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