JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
 | | 02/11/2003 10:05 PM |
| Grand Cru means different things in different regions of France. I assume you are talking about Burgundy. In Burgundy, a Grand Cru is a vineyard that the French have classified (legally determined) to be the best area for a certain grape to be produced (in Burgundy that means Pinot Noir or Chardonnay). Grand Crus include vineyards you have heard about many times - Montrachet (Chardonnay), Batard-Montrachet (Chardonnay), Bienvenues Batard Montrachet (Chard), Chevalier-Montrachet (Chard), Corton-Charlemagne (Chard), Echezeaux (Pinot Noir), Grands-Echezeaux (PN), La Tache (PN), Romanee-Conti (PN), Chambertin (PN), Griottes-Chambertin (PN), Charmes-Chambertin (PN), Mazis-Chambertin (PN), Bonnes-Mares (PN) Latricieres-Chambertin (PN) etc. There are quite few.
A premier cru also means different things in different areas of France. In Burgundy, a Premier Cru is a vineyard that the French have classified (legally determined) to be the second best area (despite Premier meaning "first") for a certain grape. There are many more Premier Crus than Grand Crus. You have probably heard of many of them as well - Pommard Grands Epenots (PN), Nuits St Georges Les Vaucrains (PN), Vosne-Romanee Les Beaumonts (PN), Beaune Clos des Mouches (PN or Chard), Chassagne-Montrachet Les Morgeots (usually Chard but can be PN) etc. | | | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts:12387
| | 02/11/2003 10:08 PM |
| I am sorry, I have nothing to + here (way out of my league) as I read this with an open mouth (& will save/print it), but...
Is any one counting the # of Posts Of The Week here?!? I think we are set for the next few weeks...    | | | |
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Brent Null
Roseville, CA
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2193
| | 02/11/2003 10:09 PM |
| How strange that premier would not be the "best" but rather second best...
Now, do these classifications hold true for the Bordeaux and Rhone regions as well, or do they mean something altogether different there?
I have to say, this is SO fascinating!!! | | | |
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Eric White
San Ramon, CA
Advanced Sommelier
Posts:9147
| | 02/11/2003 10:13 PM |
| And just to confuse matters even further, there is Bordeaux's "premier grand cru classé" and "premier grand cru", both of which are higher in classification than the lowly, yet still lofty "premier cru", and differ completely from the "cru" classifications in Burgundy..
Got that? There will be a quiz following the lecture | | | |
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Brent Null
Roseville, CA
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2193
| | 02/11/2003 10:16 PM |
| AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!  
Maybe I should just go back to Lambrusco!!! | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/11/2003 10:22 PM |
| They mean different things in those areas. In St. Emilion for example they have Grand Cru Classe wines. They then have other designations like Premier Grand Cru Classe A which is the best in St. Emilion (Ausone and Cheval Blanc). Despite these differences the appelation controlee system still applies in Bordeaux much like Burgundy. The importent difference is that vineyards are not shared like in Burgundy (Burgundy has over a 100 producers of the Grand Cru Clos de Vougeot while there is only one Lafite Rothschild). However there are these similarities:
Appelation Bordeaux controle is the same as appelation Bourgogne controlee.
Appelation Pauillac in Bordeaux (Pauilliac is called a commune in Bordeaux rather than a village is Burgundy) is legally the same as appelation Gevry Chambertin in Burgundy. Mouton Rothschild is a Grand Vin and is located within the commune of Pauilliac (Lafite and Latour are as well)
Bordeaux also has other qualitative classifications. The aforementioned st. Emilion system and the 1855 classification (that is where the term first growth, second growth down to fifth growth flow from). Pomerol is not classified past AOC status.
All areas of France follow the appelation controlle system (this applies to areas that have been granted a AOC - some areas have not been designated as such so therefore they can only be designated as vin de table or even lower vin ordinaire)
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Eric White
San Ramon, CA
Advanced Sommelier
Posts:9147
| | 02/11/2003 10:25 PM |
| To all -
I have a spreadsheet that I created with every AOC in France, in a collapsable hierarchical format. I created it strictly as a learning/reference tool for myself, but would be pleased to make it available anyone who is interested. Basically it's a tree:
Region
.....+sub-region
..........+sub-region
...............+specific AOC
....................+approved Vineyard designations
And then annotations for each related to type of grapes, typical wines, etc.
It's a work in progress, so I hadn't mentioned it before, but I think that it is actually always going to be a work in progress, and it's sort of a labor of love.
I can post it in my web space for download or if the Vinocellar admins so choose we can make it available for viewing/download directly through this site. Let me know.
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Brent Null
Roseville, CA
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2193
| | 02/11/2003 10:27 PM |
| JonesWineNo1: You need to write a book or something. Or maybe your next newsletter should be on this subject. Thanks for your knowledge and expertise.
Thanks to you ALL!!!
I feel like I just sat through French Wine 101! | | | |
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Brent Null
Roseville, CA
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2193
| | 02/11/2003 10:34 PM |
| | Eric: That would be GREAT if the moderators could see their way into putting it somewhere on the VC website!!! (HINT HINT) | | | |
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gus fleener
gilroy
Barrel Filler
Posts:1346
| | 02/11/2003 11:39 PM |
| brent,
i think this thread epitomizes "be careful what you ask for...." | | | |
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Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067
| | 02/12/2003 12:16 AM |
| To make matters worse in certain areas there is one Grand Cru vineyard from which several differant wines come from. For example in Aloxe Corton (of Corton Charlemagne fame) has 22 Grand Cru Wines (21 red and 1 white) off one vineyard- Corton. To confuse things further certain wines are labelled Aloxe Corton and are of Premier cru status, yet are also off the same vineyard yet are labeled Aloxe Corton to avoid confusion- like that worked!!!
On top of that certain producers utilise the names of the Grand Cru vineyards even though the grapes they have purchased come from the same vineyard but not the area classified as Grand Cru - for example Bonneau Du Matrays red Corton is premier not Grand Cru | | | |
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DukeRiley
McMinnville, OR
Barrel Racker
Posts:1990
| | 02/12/2003 1:08 AM |
| | Brent, If you'd like to learn more about Burgundy, Matt Kramer wrote a very good book, "Making Sense Out of Burgundy", that describes the vineyard classifying system for the Cote d'Or (Cote de Beaune and Cote de Nuits), the history of the region, and the mind-set of the winemakers there. This part occupies the first 90 pages of the book and is very useful. The rest of the book contains information about every Grand Cru vineyard and many Premier Cru vineyards, including a listing of who owns the vineyards (also useful), and his opinions about various winemakers (less useful since it was written about 15 years ago). Ask around locally and if you can't find it and would like to borrow it, let me know and I'll lend you mine. | |
Heater Allen Brewing
www.heaterallen.com | |
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Tim
Barrel Filler
Posts:1465
| | 02/12/2003 1:11 AM |
| Brent, a good little reference site to further get you started is, of course, Bordeaux.com . A lot of good basic information is here such as why Cab Sauv is the primary grape of the Left Bank and why Merlot the Right. Seems the French decided to only grow varieties that grew best in certain locations, some California wineries ought to think of that, i.e. Amador County Cab...Further for individual wine blend information, almost all of the classified Bordeaux Chateau now have websites in English, just type in the Chateau your interested in on Yahoo search or Google and you'll come up with the links. Another excellent site isBerry Brothers and Rudd UK , a retailer, but if you follow the links to say, Red Bordeaux and then to Chateau Cos d'Estournel, etc, you get a brief discription of the Chateau and the usual blend of the wine.
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Wineaux
New Orleans, LA
Barrel Filler
Posts:1413
| | 02/12/2003 1:37 AM |
| | One further permutation regarding burgundy names. Sometimes a producer will bottle a wine from several premier cru vineyards within an appellation. In that instance, rather than identify all the premier cru vineyards, the label will have the name of the producer, the AOC name, and simply the words "premier cru." For instance, I recently had a couple of bottles from Henri Prudhon labeled "St. Aubin Premier Cru." No specific vineyard was designated so this omission tells you that more than one vineyard was utilized. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/12/2003 1:59 AM |
| | That is not necessarily true. In the Cote Chalionaise, calling something a Montagny Premier Cru only connotes that the Montagny has a higher alcoholic strength than straight up Montagny. Producers can but rarely produce a Premier Cru Blend from a number of Premier Cru vineyards within the same village AOC. | | | |
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Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13672
| | 02/12/2003 3:13 AM |
| | This is a great collective Post of the Week. But, it is really a bevy of information. Many thanks all. | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
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Wineaux
New Orleans, LA
Barrel Filler
Posts:1413
| | 02/12/2003 3:32 AM |
| JWNo1,
From the website of the Bureau Interprofessionnel des Vins de Bourgogne (English Version - http://www.bivb.com/uk/index-uk.html):
"The label must give certain information and it must be given in legible characters of a size which enables it to be distinguished from the other contents of the label. There are various ways of naming a premier cru appellation on the label :
- either the name of the climat appears after the communal appellation (in characters whose dimensions must not exceed those of the appellation) ;
- or as above but with the phrase Premier Cru added ;
- or as above but with the name of the climat omitted. This generally means that the wine in question is a blend of several premiers crus of the same appellation."
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TCK
Barrel Filler
Posts:1279
| | 02/12/2003 3:40 AM |
| I don't think Jones' comment was correcting yours. What you said is true. Jones was stating that in Chalonaise the words premier cru indicate an increased alcohol content (a fact I was not aware of). In Beaujolais they do the same thing only they label the higher alcohol wines as Superior I believe.
TCK | | | |
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DdB
Barrel Filler
Posts:1452
| | 02/12/2003 4:19 AM |
| This thread is an instant classic!
Jones - are you a wine educator? If not, you should consider it. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/12/2003 4:39 AM |
| | Wineaux, the key word in your quote was "generally". "Generally" is not synonomous with "always". | | | |
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