jaimetown
DC area
Wine Bottler
Posts:3370
 | | 10/13/2003 5:18 PM |
| Recently I've been thinking more about the wines of Chateauneuf du Pape, thanks to a '98 Beaucastel and a '00 Pegau that I've tasted this year. With the recent string of good to exceptional vintages ('98 to '01), I am thinking about squirreling away a few for my cellar, but I would like to learn more about them before I drop the cash. So here are some questions for you guys:
1) "Burgundian" is a term often used to describe certain CdP - do you feel you agree that there are some aromatic and flavor profiles that resemble Burgundy?
2) Do all good CdP get "funky" - develop bretty characters - as they age? Do you find this pleasant?
3) I have read that "traditional" CdP producers do not use new oak, while the "new wave" producers do. Is this factually correct? Who are the best examples of both schools of winemaking?
4) What Chateauneuf du Pape do you have in your cellar (or tasted) that you have enjoyed the most?
Looking foward to your replies! | | | |
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TCK
Barrel Filler
Posts:1279
| | 10/13/2003 6:09 PM |
| As for question 1 - I think that grenache is a wonderful grape in CdP! The grape however can't compare to Pinot. When syrah is added there is a certain tarry richness added to the heady grenache. The Burgundian tie comes from the mushroomy earthiness that both wines can develope. This leads to question 2, Brett is not an admirable "earthy" wine charecteristic contrary to what some uninspired and less then reputable Rhone producers would have you believe. Brett is a microbiological flaw that can be avoided altogether through certain quality control methods that DO NOT have to include harch and damaging filtration. Although I have heard some people who think Brett should be part of the Rhone flavor profile argue to the contrary.
3 - It is a solid observation. CdP is not traditionally an Oaked up wine. I like it that way, there is so mych oak in wine that pure fuit freshness is often a breath of fresh air.
And finally "Who's good" well although Guigal has received more credit then they deserve there wine at $20 some dollars is a fantastic buy. Parker rated the 99 90 pts and the 2000 92 points.
You can never go wrong with Beaucastel or Viex Telegraph, and if you can find a Rayas it's a must buy (but you probably won't  ).
Food friendly and delicious, the only problem with CdP is that it's French    | | | |
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Marcel
Grape Puncher
Posts:875
| | 10/13/2003 6:10 PM |
| Jaimetown,
I'm also a true lover of CdP and I'll see what I can say about it... (please everyone, correct me when I'm wrong!) I'm going to skip the historical information about CdP and go directly to the questions, but if anyone is interested I can try to write something up. I asume you are asking about red CdP, right?
1. I can't really compare it with wines from Burgundy because I had few good Pinot Noir, but from what I know PNs tend to have smooth tannins and complex flavors/aromas, right? CpPs usually are softer than Hermitages or Cote Roties, but I don't think they'll be as smooth as PNs, showing firm and present tannins. They normally have low acidity (but enough for a good balance) and are somewhat hotter than Burgundians (by AOC regulations, at least 12,5%, but some go up to 14,5%). Their color is also much darker than PN's. As for complexity I think it's true... to start with you can use up to 13 varietals (although most Cdp use mainly Grenache and Syrah). Aromas can go from spices and ripe red fruits to earth and leather. They are wines that can be enjoyed young, but gain a lot of complexity with cellaring (up to 15-20 years). It's also good to decant them for at least 30'.
2. Excuse my English... what do you mean by "funky" and "bretty"? 
3. I also don't have any information on that...
4. Some producers I enjoy: Beaucastel, Rayas, Guigal, La Nerthe, Mont-Redon, Vieux Telegraphe, Fortia, La Gardine and Tardieu-Laurent. Warning: take care with CdP. As in many other regions/countrys, not all Chateauneuf are good and some are really mediocre! Stick to good producers! | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1210
| | 10/13/2003 6:10 PM |
| RE brett: There are two widely held beliefs as to where the gaminess of CNP comes from. The first being actual brett (although, beaucastel denies ever having brett). The second is the mourvedre. Cuvee's such as the beaucastel where they use a higher percentage of mourvedre tend to have more of this aspect to them. Other areas that use a lot of mourvedre are also known to have this (such as Bandol). There is a lot of debate about this, however I find myself leaning to the mourvedre theory. I have had bretty wines and found them similar, but different.
Not all CDP has this facet, however.
There is also the facet of using primarily grenache in the blends, and those that use more of the other grapes, including syrah. Traditional CDP tends to use more grenache and little or no new oak. Good examples are Vieux Telegraphe and Pegau. (Charvin too, I believe). Beacastel is kind of it's own category, but would align more closely with the traditionalist. La Gardine is one of the few modern CDP's I have tried.
Beaucastel, Pegau, VT, Les Callioux, La Gardine, and vieux donjon are in my cellar. | | | |
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Blair Ridley
Wine Labeler
Posts:3980
| | 10/13/2003 7:50 PM |
| Since TCK, Mars and smaug did such an excellent job describing questions/answers 1-3, I'll only chime in with producers I enjoy (so far). My cellar contains:
Clos des Papes
Charvin
Pegau
Beaurenard (both regular CdP & Boisrenard)
Janasse (Chaupin, VV, and regular CdP)
Beaucastel
Pierre Usseglio (Cuvee de Mon Aieul)
Domaine de la Mordoree (Cuvee de la Reine des Bois)
Others that are on my buy list include:
Marcoux (expensive, but I hear it's worth every penny)
Vieille Julienne
Rayas (although RP seems to be going against this one now)
Caillou
.....and many others than don't come to mind this second! | | | |
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Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13626
| | 10/13/2003 8:33 PM |
| I have a few bottles of CdP in the 'cellar' but I can't remember tasting more than one, and it was so long ago and so early in my wine education that I cannot remember the name.
Oh wait, woops. I had the Guigal 2000 from a split bottle the other night!  It was surprisi9ngly approachable and delicious. I don't think I'd rate it a 92, but a just over the hump 90 would not be out of order.
I say it was 'surprisingly' approachable because, not have had more than two of these (and one was only last week), is that the bit that I have heard/read about this kind of wine is that it is a wine meant for long term againg and it would be very unapproachable now. The comments about not much oak being used surprises me a little since I had this assumption that they must be heavily oaked to make them wines for longer term cellaring.
Are you all saying that CdPs can be drunk young, too? | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1210
| | 10/13/2003 9:08 PM |
| TJ said Quote:
Are you all saying that CdPs can be drunk young, too?
from my humble experience CDP is lovely young, but can be tannic. The overwhelming school of thought is that they will drink well, but primary, for a year or two after release- but then shut down for 3-5+ years. I don't have enough experience to really confirm or deny this.
I think a lot depends on the year too though. Every 98 I had was amazing young. Very forward. 2000 seemed a little more reserved and needed a lot of air to come around. 99 is sort of in between, not as much fruit as 99, but definitely not as structured as 2000. Granted this is a relatively small sample size from the 4 or 5 producers I listed above.. | | | |
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Eric White
San Ramon, CA
Advanced Sommelier
Posts:9053
| | 10/13/2003 9:20 PM |
| Hmmmm, Chateauneuf du Pape
IMO, CdP can be enjoyed young, but becomes something truly special with proper aging. The 1989 Beaucastle remains for me a benchmark by which I measure all others. The ones I have in my cellar are (far too few):
Beaucastle
Chateau de Vatican
Clos de L'Oratoire
Marcoux | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1010
| | 10/13/2003 9:22 PM |
| I have all the wines smaug has in cellar and consider them the finest of the value CdP's.
I also like the Clos la Oratorie. I can usually get this for about $20. It is a shade below the others but it's a good value.
I've also been told that Beaucastel uses all thirteen grapes allowed and vinifies them separately before blending. Any truth to that rumor?
See smaug, we do have something in common. | | | |
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Stefania Wine
San Jose, CA
Grape Puncher
Posts:725
| | 10/13/2003 9:27 PM |
| G.A.
That's kind of true. One of the 13, Picardin, probably doesn't really exist. They pick something they call Picardin at Beaucastel and vinify it, but it's not really it's own variety, I believe most DNA studies have shown what people call "Picardin" to be some obscure table grape, but it seems to vary by vineyard. Everyone thinks they have it and everyone has something different. It's the Petite Sirah of the Rhone. | |
Paul Romero - Owner/Winemaker Stefania Wine
www.stefaniawine.com | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 10/13/2003 9:27 PM |
| | The best CdPs from the best years need 20+ years to show their best. I've had Beaucastel, Rayas, and Vieux Telegraphe back to the 1960s and have wasted many of them by drinking them too soon. The best ones close down for more than a decade. An eight year old Beaucastel is almost never worth drinking, but a 20 year old is almost always stellar. | | | |
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Marcel
Grape Puncher
Posts:875
| | 10/13/2003 9:28 PM |
| I completly agree with smaug.
I think CdPs definitly gain a lot from cellaring, but I would rather open a good young CdP than a good young Bordeaux.
On the other hand, if you must drink it young, I would suggest trying a Gigondas or Vacqueyras from a good producer instead. They don't have the elegance and backbone of a CdP, but they are enjoyable Grenache/Syrah/Cinsault/etc wines from Southern Rhone. But I think Gigond_Ass is the real expert when it comes to Gigondas... | | | |
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Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067
| | 10/13/2003 9:31 PM |
| I second GA's pick. I find that Clos la Oratorie is a great wine expecially for the under $20 USD mark.
Other wines that haven't been mentioned-
Domaine Chante Perdirx
Domaine Chardonniere
Clos St Michel
Domaine Roger Perrin (the Vieillese Vigne in particular.)
Chateau Simian
Domaine de Villeneuve
Cuvee du Vatican
Wines I have had mixed success with (mostly vintage dependant.)
Domaine Durieu
Domaine Mathieu
Vidal Fleury
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Winetex
Austin, Texas
Master of Wine
Posts:10356
| | 10/13/2003 9:49 PM |
| GA - you are correct about Beaucastel. When you visit their cellars they will let you taste the wines before they are blended. It's really interesting.
I have same wines that Smaug does - Beaucastel, Pegau, VT, La Gardine, and Vieux Donjon . No Les Callioux though. We must have been on the same tours on our trips to the Rhone.
I'm also a huge Gigondas fan and find them good "baby" CDPs. St. Cosme Gigondas is my pet wine in this category. When Barroul makes his Gigondas Valbelle as he finally did this year all is good... Did anyone else get any Valbelle '01 besides me? Heh, heh, heh ..Evil laughter... | | | |
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TCK
Barrel Filler
Posts:1279
| | 10/13/2003 10:04 PM |
| | Grenache is a soft grape that by itself has supple tannins. Somtimes the grape can mature to fast leaving heady one dimentional wine. Often tannic CdP is a product of a healthy dose of Syrah. Color is a dead giveaway here since syrah is so much darker then grenache. More Syrah = longer life. Most CdP that will age well are due to perfect balance and won't taste over tannic in their youth. Boardo has said that he feels these wines are the hardest to judge ageability for. I listen to him and go with track record. | | | |
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Joseph Bembry
Wine Lover
Posts:4832
| | 10/14/2003 12:10 AM |
| Beaucastel
Vieux Telegraphe - 3 vintages
Charbonniere
Patrick Lesec
That's it. But I love Chateaunuef du Pape.
jb | | | |
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Bob Bressler
Napa Valley
Wine Lover
Posts:4763
| | 10/14/2003 12:22 AM |
| I too am a big fan. Best that I have ever had is the '89 Rayas. I smile every time I hear someone say that you can't make a world class wine from Grenache.
I also like Les Cailloux, Henri Bonneau, Chapoutier, Marcoux, and Beaurenard. | | | |
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jaimetown
DC area
Wine Bottler
Posts:3370
| | 10/14/2003 3:24 AM |
| | Thanks for all your replies - you confirmed my suspicion with Beaucastel as the standard-bearer in CdP. I'm looking forward to trying some of the other ones in the next few months. Thanks for the tips everyone! | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1074
| | 10/15/2003 3:21 AM |
| Ok, I'm a Chateauneuf-head. Here's what I've liked:
Ch. de la Gardine
Ch. Beaucastel
Dom. du Pegau
Ch. Fonslaette
Vieux Telegraphe
Ch. La Nerthe
Les Callioux
I'll second EW's review of the '89 Beaucastel. Outstanding, but I'd have to say the '98 Pegau is awesome as well. Now, if only I could keep my hands off of the '98 Pegau. (The 2000 is very nice as well.0
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