Randy Wigginton
Wine Connoisseur
Posts:5427
 | | 02/14/2005 8:28 PM |
| This is a phrase that many people use on this site all the time. In fact, I've used it myself. Then I started wondering... what does it mean to be shut down? What is happening with the wine? Is there a definition of
being shut down? Is there a way to measure that a wine is shutting down? When it is shut down, how long before it emerges from this state?
I'm very curious to see what I can learn about this state. | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 02/14/2005 8:39 PM |
| Many times we also say that "the wine is sleeping" or "it is going through a dumb phase".
I would guess that these "terms" mean the same thing.
I use the terms to indicate that the wine is not particularly tasting/drinking all that well at the moment and that I believe (this is where we should all get down on our knees facing east and pray to whomever...) that the wine will "open up"/"wake up"/"get smart  " at some undetermined future time.
Occasionally the "shut down" can just refer to the nose and may taste just fine.
Now if you believe all this... I've got a bridge... | | | |
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Brent Null
Roseville, CA
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2193
| | 02/14/2005 10:26 PM |
| Quote:
..."it is going through a dumb phase".
I must be shut down. | | | |
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Budman
Master of Wine
Posts:11834
| | 02/15/2005 1:09 AM |
| | Brent - some things come back from it, and some don't. Be careful who (and what) you associate with!! | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 02/15/2005 2:28 AM |
| | I think the 2002 Marquis Philips S2 Cab may be shutting down. | | | |
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Illinicellar
Grape Sorter
Posts:348
| | 02/15/2005 2:43 AM |
| | Good question Randy. Is it possible to tell the difference between a wine that is shutting down and a bottle that has been stored improperly or may be heat damaged? | | | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts:12352
| | 02/15/2005 4:19 AM |
| Yes, a bottle that's shut down shows nothing, flat, nothing going for it... It's pretty much like davidn describes "the wine is sleeping". Wine is a living, breathing organism. At times, it needs its "sleep". You can decant it or splash-decant or whatever...and nothing. The hard part is to tell if it is "sleeping" or just a wine that has very little going for it (fruit, taste, body, etc...).
If a bottle is an off bottle...well you will be able to tell (well most of us). I have seen many non-winos & people that really do not drink wine, drink a bad or corked bottle & enjoy it. I am sure most of us have... | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:12891
| | 02/15/2005 4:54 AM |
| could "shut down" also mean that deep down inside we want to believe that this wine will get better, especially if you have a bunch of it?
just playing devil's advocate
funny thing is no matter what there is absolutely no way of telling if a wine will "wake up" until it does. how does that go...past porformance does not ensure future performance   | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 02/15/2005 5:30 AM |
| Quote:
could "shut down" also mean that deep down inside we want to believe that this wine will get better, especially if you have a bunch of it?
Ant,
That is exactly what I meant by:
"...(this is where we should all get down on our knees facing east and pray to whomever...) that the wine will "open up"/"wake up"/"get smart..." | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 02/15/2005 5:43 AM |
| From "The New Wine Lover's Companion (Herbst & Herbst)
CLOSED... Used for wine that doesn't show its full potential, most likely because of its youth. Aging will usually open up such a wine as it develops character and intensity. (see also DUMB)
DUMB; DUMB PHASE... though dumb is sometimes used as a synonym for CLOSED, it really has a more complex meaning. The dumb phase of a wine (generally red) is that period of transition from its youth to maturity. Shortly after bottling, a wine may be luscious, with rich, ripe amomas and flavors. However, after a certain period of time (usually several months), such a wine may begin to close down--the fruit begins to decrease before the complexities of maturity have fully developed. The combination of declining fruit and preemergent complexity cancel each other out, creating a wine that simply doesn't taste very good. Vintners have no idea what causes this phenomenon but do agree that the time frame for this dumb phase, which can last for several years, is completely unpredictable. The dumb phase of a wine is also referred to as theflat spot or the awkward, transformational, or adolescent phase. | | | |
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Budman
Master of Wine
Posts:11834
| | 02/15/2005 10:03 AM |
| Quote:
the awkward, transformational, or adolescent phase.
Hmmm. I never got out of my adolescent phase, either!  | | | |
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Dr_Tannin
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2498
| | 02/15/2005 6:42 PM |
| I think of it as the transitional phase of wine where it doesn't appeal to human palates, usually between release and maturity.
Adolescence, dormancy, sleeping, dumb, shut down, simple but adequate descriptors. Most people ascribe this to change polyphenol chemistry, but that is probably too simplistic.
The biggest concern when tasting a wine at this phase is that a sleeping wine may never wake up.
I've said nothing you don't already know. | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 02/15/2005 6:51 PM |
| Quote:
change polyphenol chemistry
I hate it when that happens. | | | |
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Budman
Master of Wine
Posts:11834
| | 02/15/2005 6:53 PM |
| Quote:
I've said nothing you don't already know.
Davidn's quoted statement above contradicts this statement!!!! | | | |
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Pete Marsh
Left Coast
Barrel Filler
Posts:1459
| | 02/15/2005 7:52 PM |
| Quote:
funny thing is no matter what there is absolutely no way of telling if a wine will "wake up" until it does. how does that go...past porformance does not ensure future performance
From my experince, if a wine is in balance and crafted without a great deal of manipulation, then it may go through several dumb or closed phases as it ages. When it does wake up, it will usally be better than when it closed down. If, however, it is not balanced it may never awaken. I also believe that you can put a wine into a dumb or closed phase by moving it just before drinking it. I have found that having a wine sit for a few days before a tasting is far better than driving it somewhere and then tasting it. The three enemies of wine are heat, light, and motion.
My 2 cents
Pete | |
Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with. | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1475
| | 02/15/2005 8:05 PM |
| Quote:
I also believe that you can put a wine into a dumb or closed phase by moving it just before drinking it. I have found that having a wine sit for a few days before a tasting is far better than driving it somewhere and then tasting it.
That doesn't bode well for taking wine to off-lines. | | | |
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Pete Marsh
Left Coast
Barrel Filler
Posts:1459
| | 02/15/2005 8:19 PM |
| Depends on what you are doing. If it is a casual tasting, I beleive there is very little impact except the wines can be slower to open. Rolling around on the seat of the car does not help the wine. If you were doing a high-end tasting like 94 cult cabs, I'd be sure to have the wine in place a couple of days before hand. Again, your expereinces could be vastly different than mine.
Pete | |
Intaxication: Euphoria at getting a tax refund, which lasts until you realize it was your money to start with. | |
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Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13660
| | 02/15/2005 11:13 PM |
| I never really saw the transformation of a wine from a 'drinking great' phase to a 'shutting down' phase until I saw it happen to the 2000 Numanthia Toro. I now completely understand this concept.
The real trick next is to get good at figuring out how to tell when given wines might open back up again. | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 02/16/2005 1:29 AM |
| | Maybe someone could invent a stethiscope that we could listen to see if the wine is snooring. | | | |
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Randy Wigginton
Wine Connoisseur
Posts:5427
| | 02/16/2005 2:20 AM |
| Quote:
Maybe someone could invent a stethiscope that we could listen to see if the wine is snooring.
ROTFL
OK, that was pretty darn funny | | | |
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