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Carl
Grape Fermenter
Posts:462
 | | 10/26/2003 1:38 PM |
| Perhaps some of the German experts like GATC can educate me on higher quality QbA wines, namely single vineyard wines by top producers (e.g. Dr. Loosen's 2001 Ürziger Würzgarten QbA and Graacher Himmelreich QbA), and "Erstes Gewächs" wines that only get the QbA designation rather than the QMP I would expect for such pricy wines.
In the first case, are they mainly wines made from "reject" grapes picked from a top vineyard and then chapitalized? Although they have the single-vineyard designation, they usually sell for under EUR 10 in Germany.
In the latter case, is it mainly a case of German wine laws not permitting QMP because of some archaic rule (e.g. not allowing certain oaking)? These can cost as much as EUR 40.
Thanks.
(also posted on another forum) | | | |
| Jeremy Matthew
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2067
| | 10/28/2003 12:39 AM |
| Cbmac,
The Germans use a measurement of sugar and alcohol to arrive at a tier (QbA, Qmp, Spatlese etc...)
The measurement is called the Oeschsle after a Doctor Oeschsle who invented the hydrometer and thus could work out sugar and alcohol levels utilising the Hydrometer. It is a scale of measuring grape sugars and therefore grape ripeness based on density of the juice. A measurement of 75 oe would suggest a specific gravity of 1.075. Without getting into too much depth this scale is how the various wines are decided as to whether they are to be QbA, Spatlese etc..
Now dependant on regions certain levels of Oe must be reached to classify a wine as such. For QbA the specification is that all the wine comes in the bottle comes from one of Germany's 13 specified wine regions and that the grapes reach a minimum must weight (varying with each region.) The classic Riesling grape for example must reach a minimum of 57 oe ( A potential alcohol of around 7.5 if fermented out, which is less than 15 degrees brix.) in the Ahr, Mittelrhein, MSR, Wurttemberg, and Nahe while Roter traminer and Rulander must reach 72 Oe in the southern most regions fo Baden. And yes they are allowed to chapitalise QbA qines, unlike QmP. The wine also has to be made form the regions recommended grape varieties and must have a AP Number (basically inspection numbers- but these are pretty easy to get.)
The other important thing to note is that due to the liberties in producing a QbA it is rare that the Grosslage, Village etc need be identified just the region, producer, vintage and the grape.
Really QbA wines are far from the greatest examples of German wines and don't particualrly age well. My recommendation would be to stick with producers for good QbA's.
Look out for Dr Loosens 2001 was pretyt good from memory.
For the most part QbA are massed produced wines of little merit. | | | |
| GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 10/28/2003 3:14 AM |
| | Until the hype of 2001 and the 20% exchange rate escalating the prices of 2002's, you could get a Kabinett from your favorite estate for $9-11, so I never bothered to even research wines below this level. You can still get excellent Kabinetts and spatlesen for less than $15. I believe the Dargonstone (2002 Leitz Rudesheimer Drachenstein) is the only wine below the Kabinett level that I bought quantities of. | | | |
| stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2817
| | 10/28/2003 4:52 AM |
| Leitz "Bird Label" has gotten lots of attention here in the US also. Looking through the Theise catalog one can find a fair number of QbA wines that seem like screaming buys.
Please note that Jeremy has referred to theminimum must weights of QmP classifications. There is nothing prohibiting a winery from declassifying wine that would qualify as Auslese as a Kabinett, or calling a wine that is technically Spatlese as QbA.
I still find German labels easy to understand ... what I can't quite instinctively figure is what the heck they are trying to tell me about the wine that is inside.  I find that settling on a particular winery, vineyard, and/or vintage helps clear some of the confusion, as you will have a good idea of what to expect.
Unfortunately for me, I now know what to expect ... this question made me reach again for the Theise catalog, which made me read through the listings, which made me check Wine-Searcher, which made me place orders for about 15 cases of 2002 Rieslings. So, I'm now expecting a whopper of a credit card bill. 
Damn you, cbmac. | |
Cheers, y'all | |
| Carl
Grape Fermenter
Posts:462
| | 10/28/2003 10:33 AM |
| Thanks for all your replies. I think I had two totally different questions, neither of which I phrased too well. The first one was, why would a top producer make the less sweet grapes into a single-vineyard QbA when he could probably mix them with grapes from across various vineyards and obtain enough residual sugar in the mix to label it Kabinett (albeit not from any particular vineyard). I assume it is because he thinks people would rather try to taste the terrior, or would pay a premium for QbA from a top vineyard (e.g. the Ürziger Würzgarten) over a Kabinett sourced from a number of often mediocre vineyards.
The other question was totally different. There are QbAs selling for $50 in Germany, like Bürklin-Wolf's top dry whites and now (if I am not mistaken) Robert Weil's Kiedricher Gräfenberg "Erstes Gewächs" (First Growth). I got into a discussion about this in another forum, and basically it seems that --- at least in the case of Bürklin--- they would rather indicate that a wine is a Grand Cru or a Premier Cru even if it means giving up the QMP status which apparently does not allow such information on the label. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 10/28/2003 11:39 AM |
| As for your question about Erstes Gewachs, it is basically an attempt to create a vineyard image similar to the Grand Crus of Burgundy. So they make a very fine Spatlese Trocken and call is Erstes (or Grosse) Gewachs. These are definitely NOT rejected grapes. To make a true Erstes Gewachs requires the best grapes a producer can harvest.
The wines are for the most part excellent trockens,but i still have a hard time with the necessity for this. Instead of two words that wine lovers understand (spatlese and trocken) we get two words that are new to the German wine vocabulary (Erstes Gewachs).
It gets even more complicated with the Charta, Classic, Selection, etc. words showing up on dry wines in Germany. Argh. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:38
| | 10/29/2003 2:43 PM |
| Consider 3 things about German Producers:
1. Many wine producers in Germany own a few small tracts of land and keep grapes from each vineyard seperate during the harvest.
2. During the harvest it is very difficult to pick all the grapes at precisely the right ripeness.
3. Some sites do not fully ripen to Auslese (or even Spatlese) every year.
This makes it easy to declare the specific Bereich (sp?) or even vineyard on the label no matter what the ripeness level. If the grapes from 1 location come in under-ripe, they can add some sugar, call it QbA and keep the vineyard name! It certainly makes sense to put as much information as possible on a label to differentiate a product from those of other producers (and from the rest of a winery's products). Consumers (I'm one of them) are more apt to buy a QbA with a vineyard designation than a QbA (or even a Kabinett) with MSR listed as the region.
As for your questions about why Germans are willing to pay $50 for a QbA...I have no idea. I have no idea why anyone pays more than $40 for ANY bottle of wine, but that is just my personal taste...
The likes of Weil, JJ Prum, etc. are at a level of marketing and wine making skills that are far above 95% of German producers. Thus, they have the ability to promote (hype, advertise, overprice for exclusivity) and sell their wines, of every level, at a higher price. They are the German versions of the California Cult Cabernets...
-Brett | | | |
| stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2817
| | 10/29/2003 2:49 PM |
| Great answer, Brett.
I sort of consider those brave German winemakers that make exclusive, expensive QbA wines to be analogous to the Italians that started making the IGTs. That is also a technically-inferior quality class, but some winemakers simply don't want to be constricted by bureaucracy ... and I applaud their adventurous spirit. | |
Cheers, y'all | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:38
| | 10/30/2003 2:59 PM |
| Unfortunately, I don;t think it's done for the sake of being bold or adventurous...it's a mater of staying alive for most producers. For Weil et. al. it's a matter of using a competitive advantage to further their business.
-Brett | | | |
| Carl
Grape Fermenter
Posts:462
| | 11/01/2003 6:02 PM |
| This is one of those topics that gets more complicated the more you look at it. But I think the answer has to be "It depends on what the winemaker wants to achieve."
With regard to low price, single vineyard QbA (classic example Dr. Loosen Graacher Himmelreich 2001), I agree with Brett who said
Quote:
This makes it easy to declare the specific Bereich (sp?) or even vineyard on the label no matter what the ripeness level. If the grapes from 1 location come in under-ripe, they can add some sugar, call it QbA and keep the vineyard name!
But this approach only makes sense if you actually have a vineyard name worth displaying. The Graacher Himmelreich, although it is no Wehlener Sonnenuhr, is nevertheless a highly regarded vineyard that most Mosel fans have heard of. On the other hand, a lot of wineries sell wines by their the reputation of their own winery name rather than by the fame of the vineyards from which they source the grapes. So they might make a blended wine that becomes a brand in its own right, e.g. Georg Breuer in the Rheingau has "Montosa" Riesling QbA, which is blended from their four best vineyards. This is still different from producing bog standard "Riesling trocken QbA" which a lot of wineries do (also sometimes called Estate Riesling, although I think that actually means something slightly different  ) Basically each winery approaches it a little differently to make the most profit out of the assets they have.
Regarding the high end "QbAs", the whole "first growth" movement seems to be responding to the perception that German wine labels are confusing (I think they are not - you just have to understand their internal logic). Furthermore, it is trying to create a class of wine that a certain buyer will automatically gravitate to. I guess that makes sense - if you like dry riesling, which in German minds goes best with food, and you also want the best, all you have to do as the consumer is look for the "first growth" label. | | | |
| GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 11/03/2003 8:33 PM |
| J.J. Prum used to be very well priced. The first few cases of the 2001's that I bought were steals at around $21 for spatlese and $23 for auslese. With the hype, the prices started to climb and the last auslese I bought was $31.95, still a good price. Weil prices have been outrageous for years.
Prior to the 2001's, I used to buy the Prum spatlese for around $17-18. It made no sense to look for QBA's with such a low price for a good-great spatlese. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:38
| | 11/04/2003 1:37 PM |
| Quote:
This is one of those topics that gets more complicated the more you look at it. But I think the answer has to be "It depends on what the winemaker wants to achieve."
How right you are!!!
QbA is supposed to compete with the lower price point products (Beringer White Zin, Mondavi Coastal, Woodbridge, et al). Some makers use it for more than that. Wil the market sustain it? Maybe!
Looking at the US Market....In all honesty, how many locations are there in the Mosel that have name recognition with the 99.95% of the (U.S.) wine-drinking population that knows next to nothing about German wine? Piesport, Zell? Yes. Bernkastle, Wehlen? Maybe. Zeltingen, Graach, Trittenheim? No! These regions can produce great grapes, yet I rarely ever see them in the stores where I live. Is this because they are not imported? Or is it because they (at the QbA and QmP level) are not strictly labeled? If they are not stricly labeled (labeled MSR rather than by Bereich/Vineyard), why not? Because the non-German market is generally dumb to Germany! What percentage of the wine drinking public outside of Germany (or Eurpoe) can pronounce or care to remember these obscure names? it actually makes sense to leave as much as possible off the labels!
< soap box >
The German wine labeling system is the only system that is precise enough to accurately describe the wine inside. In the case of QmP, you can get an even better feeling for what the beverage inside is like. I wish all of Europe would adopt the same system (with changes to the the vernacular as necessary). It would force everyone to understand how logical it is! It would even (gasp...) make wine producers accountable! Now the otherwise-great VDP wants to create the "XYZ Growth" system...It just kills me to see this aristocratic, "we're better than you becuase we're VDP" crap destroy the only logical labeling system!
The U.S. wine market is really a dumb market. People are lazy. Most people remain purposefully ignorant about what they drink. They say, "I donlt want to think about it, I just want to drink". The select few of us who care about the difference between the various sonnenuhr vineyards cannot keep Germany in the business. Germany keeps itself in the wine business by selling within Germany (and Europe) where people are a little less lazy when it comes to reading wine labels.
</ soap box >
You bring up a good point about "Branded" non-vineyard labeling on bottles. S.A Pruem makes a bottling called "Classic". It consists of QbA riesling (from their land holdings in Wehlen and elsewhere) and Weisburgunder (which I believe is purchased from various growers elsewhere in the Mosel). My understanding is that they put the QbA riesling juice that can't go elsewhere into this bottling and top it off with an equal part of Weisburgunder. It makes a crisp and dry product that is substantially different than other wines from the area. S.A. Pruem markets themselves as a 100% Riesling producer but they make this bottle...this is strickly a "profit thing". Oh, and they don't export it, either.
Sorry to get so worked up and write a novel! This is my passion. Unfortuantely it is not my profession! Now if only I could get as excited about Identity Management Consultinmg I would be able to afford more wine! 
-Brett | | | |
| Carl
Grape Fermenter
Posts:462
| | 11/04/2003 3:27 PM |
| Brett,
I admire your passion and also agree with you that German wine lables are generally some of the easiest to read once you understand them. There is one exception to the straightforwardness of the lables - the fact that makers of insipid plonk are allowed to use "Grosslage" names that are sometimes stolen from the villages with the best vineyards in that area. This is an aside but I might as well mention it. For example Niersteiner Hipping is a respectable Rheinhessen vineyard in the village of Hipping, but the Grosslage name for the entire area is also Niersteiner, so if you have QMP wines blended from across the region they can be called Niersteiner Gutes Domtal. If a consumer does not know that this just means any old crap from the area around Niersteiner, he might buy it thinking the Gutes Domtal is a Niersteiner vineyard that he has not heard of. Shocking ripoff Grosslage names include Sharzberg in the Saar, which is probably the most famous vineyard there. This is the whole Grosslagen/Einzellagen distinction that people sometimes rave about.
But that's all an aside re German wine labels - but for that problem, they are very explicit.
However, regarding the First Growth movement, where wines that otherwise would be Spätlese Trocken are sold as $30+ QbA, I might play devil's advocate for a minute. You could argue that German wine labels, for all their explicitness, don't tell you the most important thing: whether it is of good quality or not (remember, it is all based on residual sugar content). So the First Growth movement is intended to bring a quality element to the labelling, albeit only to a single style of wine (essentially Spätlese Trocken). So isn't that a good thing? Hugh Johnson has critiiczed German wine labels for lacking this element. In the Wine Atlas (5th ed), he writes "The German government has steadily backed away from what it calls 'elitism' [on the labels]. The French are not afraid to call it quality." So contrary to what you are saying, it seems like at least some of them want to add a clearer quality component.
My retort to this line of argument would be "why not rate the vineyards separately, and publicize the rankings, rather than scrap the whole QMP labelling system that people have gotten used to." But as long as the German government won't allow a First Growth designation on a QMP label, for fear of "elitism" I guess wineries have to choose either First Growth or QMP information, and some think the former is more relevant to consumers. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 11/04/2003 4:37 PM |
| Ok, let’s get this all out on the table from here.
The German system is no more laudable than any other. Just like Burgundy it is filled with confusing vineyard names and changes to a historical baseline whereby a famous vineyard has been enlarged due to political influence. The Erdener Pralat is a prime example, as it has been enlarged with land from the Erdener Treppchen even though the land is not to the standard of the Pralat. There are a number of these examples. Granted my choice is the harshest test, since Treppchen is a fine site in its own right, but some vineyards have been enlarged with unsuitable land.
This does not even take into consideration the care a winery puts into vineyard management. Specifically I was in a vineyard during September with one of the growers, and his grapes were at 97 öchsle. In the very next row, a less attentive grower had grapes at 62 öchsle. Both producers will be allowed to use the same site name on their wines. Think of the fractured situation in the Clos Vougeot, and you get a pretty good idea of what is going on in Germany.
Now as for the market for good QbA, it is not the competitor for white zin. Perhaps a Zeller Schwarz Katz does that, but not a wine like the Leitz Dragonstone. High quality QbA (sometime bottled as Estate Riesling) is a category that allows some leeway for the grower, but the most conscientious still attempt to make fine wines. We are incredibly lucky to have access to many of these wines for under $15 per bottle and frequently under $10. The 2001 St. Urbans-Hof QbA is a prime example here. It’s $8.99 in my market, and after tasting it three times I can honestly say it’s better than most $20 USA white wines. It’s better than a lot of $40 wines. Of course if someone likes oak then they had better look the other way, but for fans of fruit driven wines with little sweetness (it’s barely off dry) this is a great QPR buy.
Erstes Gewächs and Grosses Gewächs are a category unto themselves. Certainly it has encouraged good growers to make very fine dry Rieslings, but the confusion factor is so high as to ruin any positive effect. Many of these wines are worth the $30 per bottle that is asked, as they compete favorably with Alsatian and Austrian dry Riesling. Will a labeling change convince the public outside of Germany? I doubt it.
Lastly on overall pricing, let’s look at other categories of wine. Sure we all love a bargain, and lament each one that goes away, but do fine German wines deserve lower prices than fine Chardonnay or even fine Sauvignon Blanc? Weil charges about $45 for the Kiedrich Gräfenberg Riesling Spätlese once it hits a retail shelf. Is that so out of line in the world of white wine? Seriously, how is a grower without the financial backing of Weil supposed to raise a family on income from making Riesling? We’re lucky there’s any left at all. Let’s all give a round of applause for people like Theo Haart and Daniel Vollenweider for taking nearly abandoned sites (Drohnhofberger and Wolfer Goldgrube respectively) and reviving them to make fine Riesling.
Off my soapbox. | | | |
| GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 11/04/2003 7:37 PM |
| | Rieslingfan, you make a great point about the hard working German vineyard owners and winemakers who provide such a great product for an extremely low price. That is why I make at least a $10,000 donation each year. | | | |
| Carl
Grape Fermenter
Posts:462
| | 11/05/2003 2:26 PM |
| Nice post Rieslingfan.
I guess the end result is that, although a consumer should look to the label to get an idea of the style of wine he is buying, all things being equal it is the producer that matters. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 11/05/2003 4:33 PM |
| Quote:
I guess the end result is that, although a consumer should look to the label to get an idea of the style of wine he is buying, all things being equal it is the producer that matters.
Indeed, that is true. Given the set of rules for German wine classification, a conscientious producer is vital. The laws are too lax to ensure quality, and tell us nothing about style, so go with a producer you like, or get advice from someone you trust. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:38
| | 11/06/2003 2:12 PM |
| Quote:
My retort to this line of argument would be "why not rate the vineyards separately, and publicize the rankings, rather than scrap the whole QMP labelling system that people have gotten used to." But as long as the German government won't allow a First Growth designation on a QMP label, for fear of "elitism" I guess wineries have to choose either First Growth or QMP information, and some think the former is more relevant to consumers.
Thank You for the compliment! I must admit that I know next to nothing about France. I know what varietals are in each region and what the wine types are, but have largely ignored who/what/where the first growths are. This is probably because I have very little interest in the wines France produces (Alsace is the exception...but that's not REALLY French wine ;-).
In my opinion, wine labels should not have opinions on them. It is very difficult to qualify a vineyard in an objective way. I believe the German government is right to avoid elitism. Elitism is usually based purely on politics and subjective opinions. This is exactly how the French government has over-stepped its bounds.The government is for administration and should be an enforcer of objective evaluations and rules. The consumers are the rulers of the subjective. Whatever the market will bear (bare? I can never remember) for a given bottle/label/site/producer/etc is how it should be priced. If a producer wants to label a trocken spatelese as "First Growth", so be it, but QbA it must be!
Let me make a somewhat extreme example...let's say the VDP decides that because it's wines are sooooo good tasting that the effects of the alcohol are reduced. Thus they feel that they can label a dry Spatelese as 9.5% rather than 11.5% alcohol. The consumer MAY agree, or it may not! This would be obviously illegal, but it cannot physiologically be denied that 2% alcohol is insignificant. This is a rather extreme corrolary to the VDPs opinion about what is First Growth (vs. 2nd, 3rd, or 4th growth) but it makes my point.
I want (need?) facts in order to make my own opinions on wine. In fact, I think wine labels should have to include the volume of acidity, residual sugar, sugar the time of harvest (I realize this can be roughly determined by looking at the alcohol), filtration, and cases made for each QmP bottle. Full disclosure is truly the educated consumers friend.
I would also like to add that the Grosslagen/Einzellagen labelling is difficult to wade through. I don't have a resolution to propose for that problem! I guess an educated buying public and trial and error are the answers!
I'm not sure if we are answering the original question any longer, but it sure is fun to discuss these details!
-Brett | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:38
| | 11/06/2003 2:15 PM |
| Quote:
Quote:
I guess the end result is that, although a consumer should look to the label to get an idea of the style of wine he is buying, all things being equal it is the producer that matters.
Indeed, that is true. Given the set of rules for German wine classification, a conscientious producer is vital ... so go with a producer you like, or get advice from someone you trust.
I couldn't agree more. I would suggest, however, that the German labelling system provides more information to make assumptions about the quality/taste/potential for enjoyment of wine than any other country!
-Brett | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 11/06/2003 2:58 PM |
| Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I guess the end result is that, although a consumer should look to the label to get an idea of the style of wine he is buying, all things being equal it is the producer that matters.
Indeed, that is true. Given the set of rules for German wine classification, a conscientious producer is vital ... so go with a producer you like, or get advice from someone you trust.
I couldn't agree more. I would suggest, however, that the German labelling system provides more information to make assumptions about the quality/taste/potential for enjoyment of wine than any other country!
-Brett
I would not go that far. With the vastly different quality of varoius producers (and the lax AP number requirements) the label tells virtually nothing about quality. It gives some indication of style, but with rampant declassification a kabinett can actually be auslese. No label gives data on potential for enjoyment.
I am actually rather amazed that with the "strict" German laws there is so much leeway to go around them. | | | |
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