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Forums > 100% Wine Related Discussions - No Exceptions > Wine Learning Center

"Closed", "Dumb phase", listings ?

Last Post 04-23-2003 05:49 PM byNick Shiraef. 22 Replies.

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ChangeMe

Grape Sorter

Posts: 349

04-06-2003 08:26 PM
I have been reading several TNs on VC where the "experts" (I have my list of those who I consider experts!) advise us on how a 97 cab (for example) may be closed or going through a dumb phase. If the wine is one in my cellar, I go to bottlecount.com and update my "best before"/"best after" fields. I kinda understand the interactions between the fruit, the tannins and other consituents in what makes the wine go through such a phase BUT, here's my question (and associated learning): I hear different answers (read, timelines) for different wines even if they are of the same vintage, varietal, and region. Is there a place where we can start entering the "experts" opinions on "best before"/"best after" so when its time for me to pull a bottle, I can quickly scan their opinions ? (I recognize there will be m(w)ild disagreements, but at least we will have a variety of opinions and the reader can choose). Or, is this simply a learn-by-mistakes exercise which I may not be qualified to pass judgement on until I go through years of tasting? While I am at it, here are my 97 cabs/blends I am considering popping open as soon as they are ready (with my best after/best before fields) - please advise on obvious no-nos. Beaulieu Vineyard Tapestry 2003 2006 Beringer Alluvium Red Knights Valley 2002 2006 Chateau St. Jean Cinque Cepages 2006 2009 Frog's Leap Cabernet ? ? Groth Oakville Cabernet 2003 2007 Hess Estate Cabernet Napa ? ? Marcelina Cabernet 2002 2007 Raymond Generations 2002 2010 Ristow Quinta de Pedras Now 2007 St. Supery Cabernet 2003 2007 Titus ? ? Thanks a ton ... vinotyro

love_cab_chard

Master of Wine

Posts: 12605

04-06-2003 09:16 PM
Ristow Quinta de Pedras: Had that about 3-4 months ago. Can be drank now or hold. If drinking now, give 1+ hours in the decanter. Here are my TNs on it: http://www.vinocellar.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=CaliCabTns&Number=1396&page=16&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=all&fpart=1

ChangeMe

Grape Sorter

Posts: 349

04-06-2003 09:55 PM
Thanks for the notes on Ristow - I love this wine as well. Got two left ...

love_cab_chard

Master of Wine

Posts: 12605

04-06-2003 09:58 PM
Tapestry: http://www.vinocellar.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=CaliCabTns&Number=442&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1 Groth & Chateau St. Jean Cinque Cepages: I am still holding. But I think that trying 1 Groth @ this point is not a bad idea.

wineismylife

Arlington, TX

Master of Wine

Posts: 12436

04-07-2003 12:05 AM
I don't know if I'm an expert but... I'm holding the Cinq Cepages until 2007-2009 range. I think the wine is capable of making it to and possibly improving until 2012. I will pop one in 2007 and re-evaluate at that time.

Joe-----Wine is like potato chips around me...if it's open, it's gone.

Joseph Bembry

Advanced Sommelier

Posts: 9425

04-07-2003 03:15 PM
The '97 Cinq is shutting down. Wait until 2006 at least. jb

David Niederauer

Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier

Posts: 15756

04-07-2003 04:30 PM
Quote: I kinda understand the interactions between the fruit, the tannins and other consituents in what makes the wine go through such a phase I don't. Can it be explained in 25 words of less?

ChangeMe

Grape Sorter

Posts: 349

04-07-2003 09:15 PM
davidn When I posted that sentence, I knew someone would put me in a spot and get me into trouble... thanks !! At the cost of saving some embarrassment, I will defer to other more knowledgeable members of this forum. Having said that, I recognize a "closed" wine in the following few words: "Muted fruit, misbehaving tannins!". Almost as though the fruit and tannins haven't yet figured out how to co-exist in a harmonious way. In typical geeky fashion, I have had this explained to me with graphs and equations, but I shall desist. vinotyro

Bob Bressler

Napa Valley
Wine Lover

Posts: 4894

04-07-2003 09:33 PM
In the case of my most expensive recent education on this topic - the '94 Harlan - the biggest clue was in the nose. Basically, there were no aromatics. The flavors were muted, almost as if you were listening to an orchestra through a thick curtain. Very little finish.

David Niederauer

Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier

Posts: 15756

04-07-2003 11:08 PM
I know what it is... But WHY does the wine do this? Most of the time it is a PHASE. What makes it go dumb and how does it come back? I don't need some chemistry answer; just in plain English if possible.

Jeremy Matthew

Barrel Sampler

Posts: 2067

04-08-2003 01:18 AM
David, Basically (please note this is the generalised explanation and that there are many factors involved) The aspects that are important in recognising how a "dumb" phase works are most easliy answered by thinking about the palate. Because various aspects of the wine balance at differant rates (tannins, acids, flavourals etc..) certain characters dominate during certain periods. When these particular flavourals dominate the other aspects of the wine appear subdued. So although the wine should have huge amounts of fruit if the tannins are presently at the fore, your palate will be unable to percieve (with ease) the amount of fruit there. Sort of like sitting in a flower garden trying to smell the particulars of the perfume, your nose will not recognise the floral aspects of the perfume because of the over abundance of flowers around you. So to put this into wine terms, the reason why the wines appear dumb is simply because your palate goes into sensory over load due to one aspect of the wine. Your brain tries to balance the flavours of the wine and so the wine appears flat or dull with only a singular character dominating. Your brain automatically does this balancing act as a way to discover nuances to a particular food or beverage. If you have had a can of coke by the end of the can it appears to taste more bitter rather than sweet like the first sip is. Thats your brain doing the balancing act I'm talking about. Interestingly thats why cans are the size they are. Scientific tests done on the palate worked out that the palate loses it initial tastings and balances itself after about 300ml of beverage. Now this is also applicable to wine, except with regard to wine we are trying to discover the nuances so it is of benefit. With coke we are not (unless you are really into coke of coarse.) The closed nose is often due to the aromatics going into a period where they are dominated by non aromatic aspects of the wine (so for example the tannins maybe overbearing) and because the wine has no aromatic appeal to your nose, it is very hard (almost impossible) for your palate to be able to determine flavours. I hope that helps and I wasn't just rambling, I'm terribly hungover today and my heads not working particularly well....

David Niederauer

Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier

Posts: 15756

04-08-2003 02:52 AM
Jeremy, Thanks! Quote: Because various aspects of the wine balance at differant rates (tannins, acids, flavourals etc..) certain characters dominate during certain periods. Really, that says it. And it is kinda obvious when I think about it. Thanks again... you solved a bit of a mystery for me.

Eric White

San Ramon, CA

Advanced Sommelier

Posts: 9432

04-08-2003 03:00 AM
Indeed, well said Jeremy

2008: the end of an error

ChangeMe

Grape Sorter

Posts: 349

04-08-2003 04:14 AM
Thanks ! Chemistry equations not needed ..... vtyro

Budman

Philly Suburbs

VinoCellar.com Extraordinaire

Posts: 23638

04-08-2003 09:25 AM
Jeremy, Looks like you should get hung over more often!!

TCK

Barrel Filler

Posts: 1279

04-08-2003 06:18 PM
I want the chemistry equation

TCK

Barrel Filler

Posts: 1279

04-08-2003 06:22 PM
I would also add that some times a wine in the dumb stage is really a wine that was initially built without the balance required to properly age. These wines appear to be in a dumb stage, but because of a lack of fruit and concentration in the begining they will never balance out. I may be corrected here but I remember talking to Jones one time about wines that never really come around because the right balance was never achieved from the begining. TCK

JonesWineNo1

Sommelier

Posts: 8568

04-08-2003 07:14 PM
Thats true TCK. One of the most used falsehoods in the wine business is "Trust me - it is closed right now but just you wait in five years this will be awesome stuff".

Bob Bressler

Napa Valley
Wine Lover

Posts: 4894

04-08-2003 07:23 PM
I have raised a ton of money for charity events by donating horizontals of 1985 CA cabs. They even started out pretty well balanced and got mondo scores, but now the fruit has faded away and the tannins are king. (Obviously, this is not true of all the '85s - there are still some that I like to drink) \bob

skwid

Wine Connoisseur

Posts: 5452

04-08-2003 07:35 PM
So you are saying I should check to see if Bob Bressler donated a wine before I bid?

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