ChangeMe
Grape Sorter
Posts:218
 | | 05/25/2005 5:29 AM |
| I was wondering about the significance of the hump that runs up inot the bottom of some bottle. I noticed that Pax bottles seem to have a really pronounced humg that is both deep and wide, which no doubt increases the size of the bottle and makes it difficutl to store in a rack. I've also noticed that Cristal bottles do not have any sort of protrusion, the bottle is completely flat.
I've seen waiters and someliers use the protrusion to hold the bottle by the bottom so they can reach across a table to pour wine, but I don't think that's the reason why the humps are designed into the bottles.
Does it influence the way a wine ages? Or does the hump help make the bottle stronger? I did notice that the Cristal bottle, which did not have the hump inside, had a very thick and heavy base. | | | |
|
Binski
South Bay
Grape Fermenter
Posts:457
| | 05/25/2005 5:39 AM |
| | That hump is called "the punt" its there to collect sediment buildup and reinforce the bottle. I think the reason that Cristal does not use a punt is that most of the sediment is removed through "disgorgement" and that it's released later than normal. | |
"Why Keep Score if you are not going to play by the rules?" | |
|
David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15701
| | 05/25/2005 6:00 AM |
| Quote:
collect sediment buildup and reinforce the bottle
Binski is right on.
What is interesting to look at 19th century bottles that were hand-made. The punt was just kind of shoved up and they are almost never perfect. | | | |
|
JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Lover
Posts:4982
| | 05/25/2005 2:55 PM |
| | Sediment collection is a happy coincidence, but not the purpose of the indentation. (Fizzies should have no sediment, but often have the deepest punt.) Read this for a fairly thorough discussion. (You have to scroll down to Roman Numeral IV to get to the good stuff.) | |
Beta testing a new signature. | |
|
ChangeMe
Grape Sorter
Posts:218
| | 05/25/2005 4:23 PM |
| Awesome article, directly on point, and thanks for the other responses as well.
I've gotta say that I agree with the article about sediment collection. I'm not sure exactly how the punt helps to collect sediment. If this were the case, wouldn't age-worthy red wines have the most pronounced punts, instead I seem to find the most substantial punts in some bigger Syrah and Champagne bottles.
Could it really be that they are in place nowadays to make the bottle look bigger, or to aid in the marketing of a bottles shape? That would seem to be backfiring in some cases as people are talking of avoiding fat bottles because they are hard to store in racks. | | |
|
|
skwid
Wine Connoisseur
Posts:5452
| | 05/25/2005 4:49 PM |
| | My understanding on Cristal not having a punt is that the Tsar didn't want his enemies to be able to hide explosives in the punt and wanted a flat bottomed bottle. Roederer gave him his wish. | | | |
|
Sacred Cow
Wine Thief
Posts:2764
| | 05/26/2005 2:33 AM |
| I will propose one other use for the punt.
Consider a bordeaux bottle of a given glass thickness. Now, make that bottle over sized, i.e., wider (think Pax). If the outside circumference of the bottle is larger, and the bottle is still the same height (tall), the bottle would hold much more than 750ml of liquid (inside volume). Thus, a way has to be found to reduce the volume inside the bottle so it still just holds 750ml. To take away some volume, you place a punt in the bottom of the bottle. The glass rises up, and displaces some of the volume in the bottle. Thus, only room for 750ml of liquid.
Of course, the relationship will not be truly linear, since the larger bottles either have to, or do have, thicker glass. But still, the wider circumference bottle holds a larger volume. The bottle makers have to either lower the volume in the bottle, shorten the height of the bottle (make it stumpy), or wine lovers would have to live with a lot of excess volume (read air) in the bottle.
Mike | | | |
|
ChangeMe
Grape Sorter
Posts:218
| | 05/26/2005 8:13 AM |
| That's one reason why I asked the question originally. I mean, if the main reason for the punt is to take up space up in the middle of the bottle in order to make the bottle bigger, then I think that's silly. To say nothing of the fact that these bottles are difficult to rack and store.
So, of course the punt takes up space within the bottle, and that makes the bottle bigger around the outside, but that's just an effect and can't be the actual reason for it can it? | | | |
|
Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13627
| | 05/26/2005 1:45 PM |
| | Don't wineries sometimes use larger punts to make the overall bottles larger to therefore appear more 'impressive' when the bottles ultimately sit on a retailer's shelf? | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
|
garry clark
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:27
| | 05/27/2005 11:19 PM |
| | The punt is a hangover from the days when all bottles were handblown. The bottom of the bottle was where the glassblowers pipe was, and when it was nipped off, there was a jaggy bit on the bottom of the bottle. In order to prevent it scratching the tables this was pushed into the bottle, creating the punt. Now that almost all bottles are machine blown in moulds, the punt is a romantic hold-over that serves little real function. Apparantly it does have a funcion in champagne however as it evenly distributes the pressure and prevents the bottles from exploding. | | | |
|
Vitis Vinifera
Grape Sorter
Posts:309
| | 05/28/2005 3:17 AM |
| TJ, i'd say that wineries don't do that, as wineries don't make bottles (E&J the exception), but bottle manufacturers probably do, and it basically goes back to your point........
the Unified Symposium in Sacramento in Jan, where the bottle mfr's show off their wares, are a tempting target for some of those behemoths.........(next one I'll take my hidden digicam as the undercover VC mole) | | | |
|
Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13627
| | 05/28/2005 3:02 PM |
| Quote:
...the Unified Symposium in Sacramento in Jan, where the bottle mfr's show off their wares, are a tempting target for some of those behemoths.........(next one I'll take my hidden digicam as the undercover VC mole)
That'd be COOL, VV! Do that. Please?!  | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
|
ChangeMe
Grape Stomper
Posts:152
| | 05/31/2005 10:59 AM |
| Quote:
What is interesting to look at 19th century bottles that were hand-made. The punt was just kind of shoved up and they are almost never perfect.
David, I envy you for being able to have a look at those. Most of us don't come by any bottles of such age. | | | |
|
Joseph Filippi
Grape Picker
Posts:22
| | 05/07/2006 5:29 AM |
| The "punt" in the bottle is actually used for strengthening the bottle, why in a still wine you ask ? good question with no answer here, but for the reason of strength is with Champagne and it's higher internal pressure. That punt is designed like the end of an air compressor tank, round, it has more surface area to hold more p.s.i. but obviously in reverse of the tank end, or the bottle would fall over.
Joe | | | |
|