Marcel
Grape Puncher
Posts:875
 | | 01/20/2005 2:33 PM |
| | whiner is right. Now a Chianti just needs to have at least 75 or 80% Sangiovese (up to 100%) and up to 20 or 25% of other varietals (not sure about the exact %), including Cabernet and Merlot, so many wines that were Super-Tuscans can now be Chianti again. But producers are probably wondering whether this would be good from a marketing perspective, although some decided to produce top quality, Super-Tuscan level Chianti, like Castello di Ama and Fonterutoli. | | | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts:3214
| | 01/20/2005 4:49 PM |
| Quote:
dbw4,
I may be wrong, but I believe that the rules governing Chianti were changed a decade (maybe more) ago and now a 100% sangiovese from the Chianti region CAN be classified as a Chianti.
This is rarely done, since few producers would actually be able to get the prices they command if labeled as Chianti.
BTW, producers will use the IGT designation for the region for a Super Tuscan (or any wine not conforming to DOC/DOCG regulations). This is because it is illegal to print the vintage on a Vino di Tavola (VdT). | | | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts:3214
| | 01/20/2005 4:50 PM |
| Quote:
whiner is right. Now a Chianti just needs to have at least 75 or 80% Sangiovese (up to 100%) and up to 20 or 25% of other varietals (not sure about the exact %), including Cabernet and Merlot, so many wines that were Super-Tuscans can now be Chianti again. But producers are probably wondering whether this would be good from a marketing perspective, although some decided to produce top quality, Super-Tuscan level Chianti, like Castello di Ama and Fonterutoli.
Mars,
I'll quote my initial post with respect to Chianti varietal breakdown:
Quote:
Chianti
1. Minimum 75% Sangiovese. Allowed other varietals include: Canaiolo - up to 10%, Trebbiano Toscano or Malvasia del Chianti - up to 10%, other allowed varietals (i.e. Cabernet Sauvignon or Merlot) - up to 10%.
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Dick W.
Barrel Filler
Posts:1081
| | 01/20/2005 4:51 PM |
| Quote:
There are a number of highly regarded Super Tuscans made from Merlot (Masseto being the most obvious example) and Syrah (for example Scrio and the aforementioned Favius). To say that Super Tuscans are essentially always Cabernet Sauvignon is misleading and incorrect.
jones: would you put masseto above the redigaffi in terms of merlot quality? i've got two masettos in the cellar, but have never had a redigaffi. never had a 90 sass either, but that's a different story. | | | |
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jason
Napa Valley
Wine Addict
Posts:6756
| | 01/20/2005 5:19 PM |
| Frankie,
I would put Massetto a large step above Redigaffi. Redigaffi comes off as interntionally styled fruit juice when tasted next to Massetto. | | | |
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dbw4
Grape Puncher
Posts:902
| | 01/20/2005 5:35 PM |
| Mars and Whiner et al,
Futronic beat me to the point. The rules were changed in the 90's. What really happened is that more Chianti producers started putting better grapes and blends together for their Chianti's, rather than IGT/Super Tuscan producers calling their $75 "Chianti Reserva".
DBW | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 01/20/2005 5:48 PM |
| | They are both at the top of the hierarchy for Italian Merlots (along with le Macchiole's Messorio. Also don't forget Merlot blends such as Siepi and Lamborghini either). Masseto has been produced longer than Redigaffi and while the early efforts were good they were not earth shattering. Redigaffi has been stunning in most vintages. Personally, my preference is Messorio, Redigaffi, and then Masseto although all three are quite good if egregiously priced nowadays. I disagree with all aspects of Jason's commentary especially the international fruit juice slam on Redigaffi. Its more than a little ironic that when Masseto first appeared on the scene it was also subject to such commentary. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 01/20/2005 5:51 PM |
| Quote:
This is because it is illegal to print the vintage on a Vino di Tavola (VdT).
Is this new legislation? VdTs have been vintage dated for years. | | | |
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jason
Napa Valley
Wine Addict
Posts:6756
| | 01/20/2005 5:56 PM |
| | It wasn't really a slam, just how Redigaffi tasted next to Masseto. On it's own Redigaffi does not reflect that. It was a very well balanced wine with a definite Italian stamp on it. I like them both, but the prices are also ridiculous on both as well. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 01/20/2005 5:58 PM |
| | When someone calls any $200 bottle of wine "internationally styled fruit juice" that is a slam on multiple levels. | | | |
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jason
Napa Valley
Wine Addict
Posts:6756
| | 01/20/2005 6:10 PM |
| | That is the nice thing about personal taste, it can't be wrong. I have had more $200+ internationally styled disappointments than not. Price doesn't make the wine, though many seem to think so. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 01/20/2005 6:18 PM |
| Quote:
That is the nice thing about personal taste, it can't be wrong. I have had more $200+ internationally styled disappointments than not. Price doesn't make the wine, though many seem to think so.
This response makes no sense to me. You claimed your comment on Redigaffi was not a slam when to any reasonable observer it clearly is a derogatory comment. What you have now written does not logically flow from the prior posts. What are you trying to say in this post? It appears to me that you are now trying to insult me by insinuating that I somehow believe that price makes the wine. Is that the case? | | | |
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jason
Napa Valley
Wine Addict
Posts:6756
| | 01/20/2005 6:25 PM |
| | No Jones it was not a personal insult. That is why I said "though many", and not "you". I come here to learn and not to insult others or pick fights. It was not a direct insult on the wine either as I stated before, just comparison when tasted next to Masseto. We obviously have differing opinions on the wine. If any wants to se my take on it there is a TN posted. I am done with this thread now because it has no where positive or helpful to the site to go. Sorry for any confusion, especially if you thought I was taking a personal stab at you. | | | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts:3214
| | 01/20/2005 6:35 PM |
| Quote:
Quote:
This is because it is illegal to print the vintage on a Vino di Tavola (VdT).
Is this new legislation? VdTs have been vintage dated for years.
Over the past few years. Basically, anything that used to be labeled as VdT to skirt DOC/DOCG is now labeled as IGT with the region it's from and its vintage. For example, Siepi is labeled as an IGT Toscana. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1371
| | 01/20/2005 6:38 PM |
| | This is consistent with what we were told at the wineries in November. They were embarassed that the Super Tuscans and other wines were being labeled as Vina Tavolas and created the IGT designation. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 01/20/2005 6:51 PM |
| | I understand this. My question though was when did it become illegal to vintage date VdTs? VdTs have been vintage dated in the past for years. Frankly this prohibition makes little sense to me (although it is Italian wine law and logic is not their strong suit...). | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1371
| | 01/20/2005 7:22 PM |
| My assumption, and maybe it is wrong, is that the implication was that when they created the IGT which bears vintage, they stopped putting vintages on the Vino Tavolas.
I am with you, I don't see why you would prohibit the labelling of vintages. It is one thing to not require it, but why prohibit it? | | | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts:3214
| | 01/20/2005 7:33 PM |
| Basically it stems from wanting to ensure quality. The VdT convention resulted in a free-for-all. IGT is a step up from that, ensuring that wine labeled as an IGT <whatever> actually had their grapes grown in that area, and not grown in, for example, the South, trucking the juice north to blend with.
I believe a similar thing happened (happens?) in France. The blending with juice from other regions, I mean. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1371
| | 01/20/2005 7:37 PM |
| | Right, I know why they created the IGT, makes perfect sense. It guaratees, for example, the grapes are from Tuscany, if it is IGT Toscana. But for a VdT they still make them right(?), let's say it uses grapes from all over, why shouldn't they be able to put the year on it? | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 01/20/2005 7:59 PM |
| | IGTs were designed to clean things up but they did not eliminate the VdT designation. Are you sure Futuronic that VdTs can no longer be vintage dated? Note, French table wine is still vintage dated. | | | |
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