futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts:3214
 | | 01/18/2005 2:29 PM |
| BTW, I'm glad to see that the number of Italian bottles in Winetex's and WIML's cellars are increasing.  We'll get your fully converted sooner or later.  | | | |
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KillerB
Barrel Racker
Posts:1533
| | 01/18/2005 3:15 PM |
| | Great information Fut - I considered replying with some feeble excuse for a post but steadied myself after seeing yours. Always the Italian expert - cheers. | | | |
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Dick W.
Barrel Filler
Posts:1081
| | 01/18/2005 3:38 PM |
| i don't purport to have extensive experience with all the native italian grapes, so i won't comment on a few of them.
brunello - sangiovese grosso grape (clone of the sangiovese grape)
favourite producers: Ciacci Piccolomini d'Aragona, siro pacenti
chianti - sangiovese
favourite producers - monsanto - the Il Poggio CCR, i'll second the san giusto a Rentennano, but my most reliable is Fattoria di Felsina, which makes 3 chiantis, the rancia (about $40), the CCR (about $30), and the regular CC (about $20). antinori's two bottlings, the Badia a Passignano (about $40) and the Tenute Marchese (about $30) are also to my liking. fontodi.
note: of course both felsina and fontodi make a (usually) 100% sangiovese super tuscan, the fontalloro and the flaccianello, which are both quite good.
note 2: avignonesi makes a wonderful Vino Nobile di Montapulciana Grand Annate Riserva (70% minimum prugnolo gentile grape (a clone of sangiovese)) which i've yet to be disappointed with. it is roughly $50-$60 tho.
barbera: have never really gotten into this grape, either from italia or stateside.
barolo: tends toward the expensive (usually $50 and up), so my experience is not widespread. also, as with barbaresco, these wines tend to benefit from aging, much like fine bordeaux. i've consistently been impressed with the following producers, ceretto for the over $50, both barbaresco and barolo, and scavino (definitely over $50. moccagatta makes a very nice barbaresco for roughly $50). sottimano has generally been a disappointment for me.
no experience with montepulciano grape. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1371
| | 01/18/2005 3:49 PM |
| BTW, Jaimetown just posted a note on the 1999 Felsina Chianti in the Italian TN section.
Agree on the Antinori Badia a a Passignano, although expensive, it is an excellent Chianti. | | | |
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jaimetown
DC area
Wine Bottler
Posts:3370
| | 01/18/2005 4:46 PM |
| Good posts everyone. Thanks for pitching in to the "help Board-O enjoy Italian wine" movement. | | | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts:3214
| | 01/18/2005 6:03 PM |
| Quote:
Agree on the Antinori Badia a a Passignano, although expensive, it is an excellent Chianti.
We're having a magnum of the 1997 this Saturday at the 1-year Toronto Wine Cru anniversary dinner.
And Jaime, I don't know if we'll ever get Board-O actually liking Italian wine, but we've got to try! | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1371
| | 01/18/2005 7:31 PM |
| | Fut - hope you guys enjoy it. We had it while at the Antinori restaurant at the site of the vineyard, which I would highly recommend to anyone visiting the area. | | | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts:3214
| | 01/18/2005 7:37 PM |
| | I'll be posting notes, so you'll know! | | | |
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dbw4
Grape Puncher
Posts:902
| | 01/19/2005 5:22 PM |
| A gap in Board-O's request, and the answers is the place Super-Tuscans fills.
I would expand this to really refer to Cab, Merlot and blends of the international varieties with Italian grapes. The reason this should be included is that the worthwhile and interesting "Supers" have a character that is Italian while offering a departure from the old model. Even all Sangio wines like Fontalloro, Torrione, etc. that are Tuscan (and even from Chianti) in origin, are wonderful but different from other offereings. Yet they have a sense of place and personality. Oreno, Tignanello, Sass, etc. also have their place in Italian wine.
Another hole is Southern Italy, with Aglianico, especially. This can be hit or miss, though. I ahve had some truly blah wines, but also surprisingly lively and dark Aglianico.
Love this entire thread - more soon.
Good Stuff Fut!!!
DBW | | | |
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Dick W.
Barrel Filler
Posts:1081
| | 01/19/2005 7:48 PM |
| so called super tuscans could be a thread all their own. as you indicate, they can span all sangiovese to classical french grapes blended either with or without sangio. several have been mentioned in this thread, including favius (a syrah), as well as several you mentioned. that would be a nice primer post that rev could pin possibly.
i'm well aware of board-o's disappointment generally with italian wines. i was guessing, perhaps wrongly, that most of those disappointments were from the super tuscans, rather than the distinct varietals he mentioned. | | | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts:3214
| | 01/19/2005 8:38 PM |
| | I do know that Board-O has had several Barolo that he found thin and acidic. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 01/19/2005 9:06 PM |
| | My complaint with Italian wines is similar to my complaint with Burgundies- too many disappointing wines. With Burgundy, the successes are great enough in magnitude to offset the disappointments. I can't say the same about Italian wines. I'm not alone on this, though I am the most vocal. If you remember, there was a thread about which regions people didn't enjoy very much. If you check it, I believe you'll find Italy at or near the top of the list. | | | |
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dbw4
Grape Puncher
Posts:902
| | 01/19/2005 9:09 PM |
| Italy does require attention and caution! The variety and QPR and wines I have enjoyed does outweigh the challenges.
But that's me......
DBW | | | |
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KillerB
Barrel Racker
Posts:1533
| | 01/19/2005 11:56 PM |
| Super-Tuscans were really based on the Sassicaia theory: it's a damned good place to grow good grapes. In their case Cab Sauv and realistically Super-Tuscans are always Cab Sauv.
Discuss. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 01/20/2005 12:06 AM |
| | There are a number of highly regarded Super Tuscans made from Merlot (Masseto being the most obvious example) and Syrah (for example Scrio and the aforementioned Favius). To say that Super Tuscans are essentially always Cabernet Sauvignon is misleading and incorrect. | | | |
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KillerB
Barrel Racker
Posts:1533
| | 01/20/2005 12:27 AM |
| Quote:
There are a number of highly regarded Super Tuscans made from Merlot (Masseto being the most obvious example) and Syrah (for example Scrio and the aforementioned Favius). To say that Super Tuscans are essentially always Cabernet Sauvignon is misleading and incorrect.
Fair counter-point, but Sass is the babe.
Admit it, you know it's true. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 01/20/2005 1:04 AM |
| | It used to be no doubt but I have not had a really great Sassicaia since the 1990 (the 90 was oh so good though). Hopefully the 99 will develop well (because I have some in my cellar). The 97 underperformed in the vintage. Frankly, I think Sassicaia has been passed by by a number of other Super Tuscans including the ones I have already mentioned plus other high end offerings from Le Macchiole and Tua Rita. Solaia has a better track record in the nineties as well. | | | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts:3214
| | 01/20/2005 3:00 AM |
| The 1990 Sassicaia is the only one I've had, but it was excellent. Not a bad bottle to start with.
Personally, I don't have too many wines in my cellar from non-native grapes. There's been a few books and articles that I've read stating that wines made from Merlot tend to perform a little better than those based on Cab Sauvignon, Cab Franc, or Syrah in Italy.
I'd rather have a Barolo. | | | |
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dbw4
Grape Puncher
Posts:902
| | 01/20/2005 1:28 PM |
| To be more specific, Super-Tuscan refers to a wine that falls outside of the rules for a region. A 100% Sangiovese from the Chianti region can be (is) a ST, because it does not follow the Chianti blending rules. The IGT or "table wine" designation was all that could be applied.
DBW | | | |
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whiner
Second star to the right, and straight on till morning
Wine Thief
Posts:2867
| | 01/20/2005 2:16 PM |
| dbw4,
I may be wrong, but I believe that the rules governing Chianti were changed a decade (maybe more) ago and now a 100% sangiovese from the Chianti region CAN be classified as a Chianti.
As an aside, while I do not have extensive Super-Tuscan experience, I have consistently found Tua Rita Giusto di Notri to be every bit as good, if not better, than any comperably priced ($80-$85) CA Cab/Merlot blend. I think it is the only Cab-based Super-Tuscan that I always want at least a few of in good years.
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I can't listen to that much Wagner. I start getting the urge to conquer Poland.
-- Woody Allen | |
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