dbw4
Grape Puncher
Posts:902
 | | 10/02/2004 4:43 PM |
| The search was on this topic was not useful.
In a recent post, DavidN remarked on the fact that he'd heard that the B&H wines aging was affected by the palstic corks.
What I was wondering is what the prevailing opinions were on aging with screw caps and plastic corks? Will we need to re-calibrate our "guesses"? Are winemakers considering staying with cork on wines meant to age?
Curious and Concerned,
DBW | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts:1010
| | 10/02/2004 5:16 PM |
| All of the above and none of the above.
Nobody really knows yet how alternative closures will work out. Most "evidence" presented at this time is purely anecdotal.
Obviously there is a problem with natural cork. Are alternates the answer? Only time will tell. | | | |
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Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13627
| | 10/02/2004 6:52 PM |
| Quote:
All of the above and none of the above.
Nobody really knows yet how alternative closures will work out. Most "evidence" presented at this time is purely anecdotal.
Obviously there is a problem with natural cork. Are alternates the answer? Only time will tell.
I agree with GA. I wonder if the 'high end' wines that are produced, particularly ones meant to age a long time, will stick purely with corks or shift to something else. It'd behoove some of those producers to test a case or two of each vintage with these alternate closures now to see what happens after 5 years, 10, 20, etc. | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15701
| | 10/02/2004 8:57 PM |
| To date I have not heard of any wines with "plastuc" corks with any problems except for B&H. Here on the board there has been speculation about recent vintages of B&H and how several posters saying that those with the "plastic" closures should be drunk asap. IIRC they thought that another year or so the wine would be OTH. This is in direct contrast with previous vintages of B&H with regular cork closures wanting to be put away for 7 to 10 years.
The recent B&H with the wax sealer over the "plastic" cork seem not to be affected. And other than a few of the "expert" speculations here no one really knows.
I don't particularly like plastic corks. No good reason... just don't like them. There are many many "big time" winemakers who are using them including our good friend Brian Loring. I would think the plastic is just fine for a wine that wants to be drunk within five years or so but wines that expect to age IMO shouldn't have plastic. I'm far from knowing anything about this at all but... just an opinion.
I love the screw cap. But once again I would only put these on wines that are drunk with five or so years. Long agers still should have a cork unless we can come up with some real long term research.
I know when PlumpJack decided to bottle half of their 1997 Reserve Cab with screw caps the winemaker (Nils V.) was (and still is) completely against it. He just doesn't think it will age in the traditional time or manner.
Certainly the biggest disappointment a wine lover can have is to open that perfectly stored bottle of 1900 Chateau Margaux only to find that it is corked. | | | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts:12248
| | 10/02/2004 10:19 PM |
| Since it is NOT yet proven that plastic corks & screw caps minimize the corkage problem, I don't like either.
If it is proven that either one does MINIMIZE the corkage problem, I would vote for in favor. | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15701
| | 10/02/2004 10:23 PM |
| | It is fact... synthetic corks and screw caps... these wines will never be "corked"! | | | |
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Eric White
San Ramon, CA
Advanced Sommelier
Posts:9054
| | 10/02/2004 10:35 PM |
| Quote:
It is fact... synthetic corks and screw caps... these wines will never be "corked"!
Not completely true David, tho rare TCA can get into the wine through sources other than the cork... | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15701
| | 10/02/2004 10:47 PM |
| only before the wine is bottled.
The point is that these two alternative closures will not CAUSE the wine to get corked as a regular cork can/does at least 2% of the time. | | | |
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Eric White
San Ramon, CA
Advanced Sommelier
Posts:9054
| | 10/02/2004 10:48 PM |
| | Right you are Davidn. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 10/02/2004 11:32 PM |
| | Like davidn, I have my doubts about long-term aging with plastic corks for the following reason: When you buy any consumable non-alcoholic liquid in plastic, you are advised by the producer to drink it within a year or so. Water or soda will take on some of the taste of plastic with time. Plastic isnot non-biodegradable, rather it degrades very slowly. | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15701
| | 10/02/2004 11:47 PM |
| | These plastic corks aren't really plastic. What are they? | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15701
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:12891
| | 10/02/2004 11:52 PM |
| | i'm still a fan of corks. i am willing to take the risk. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 10/02/2004 11:54 PM |
| | david, some plastic corks are plastic. | | | |
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dbw4
Grape Puncher
Posts:902
| | 10/03/2004 12:11 AM |
| I don't feel any better, but I did not expect to!
Is the risk of corked! worth the known aging process? Until we know what alternatives provide re: aging, it is a crap shoot. It would truly stink to find that a 2001 Cal Cab that had a history of aging was adversely affected by an alternate enclosure......
DBW | | | |
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texaswino
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2184
| | 10/04/2004 11:28 PM |
| | I had a 1997 St Francis Reserve merlot last month that tasted like it was ageing quite well. I have had about 12-15 bottles of this over the last several years and everyone was very good. The wine has changed over time and seems to be progressing at a normal rate I would expect from a regular cork. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 10/04/2004 11:36 PM |
| | tw, I'm not sure what St. Francis' corks are made from, but I don't think they're actuallytic. By the way, I agree with you. I think their wines age just fine with the artificials, though I seem to remember some one WS a few years ago disagreeing with that. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Grape Stomper
Posts:152
| | 10/07/2004 12:41 PM |
| It isn't all anecdotal, research has been carried out by the Australian Wine Research Institute, and by the University of Bordeaux - the latter since the late 60s. And certainly by other institutes as well.
Unfortunately I cannot find a single reference now that I need one, but the latest study I read damned
the synthetic closures for giving a plastic taste to wines even after realtively short time in bottle.
I've also read that the elasticity wanes after 18-24 months which leads to oxidation.
A notable number of bottles bottled under Stelvin hav reduction-problems, but my (somewhat limited but working) knowledge of chemistry tells me this probably is because winemakers have yet to get accustomed to judicious use of sulphur when bottling under Stelvin.
I put my faith in the last one being the easiest to correct. | | | |
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Andrew P.
Grape Fermenter
Posts:416
| | 10/07/2004 3:19 PM |
| Quote:
These plastic corks aren't really plastic. What are they?
I can chime in with my .02 if ok...
I for one am using Neocork for my first release. Reasons are 3 fold... 1) Brian said they are better!  2) Neocorks own studies (and outside studies) show TCA levels non existent IF the wine is bottled w/o TCA present from some other source in the winery 3) For such small, limited production I currently have...to lose apossible 10%+ to cork taint would limit my abilities to grow near term, plus for those consumers that can't identify cork taint...they may just discard it as a bad bottle of wine and never return.  Not good in my book. I want to offer 0% taint.
And to answer the "What are they" part...Neocork is an extruded highly resilient foamed inert resin  ...and of course FDA compliant. That is direct from the company description.
Andrew | | | |
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Budman
Master of Wine
Posts:11814
| | 10/07/2004 4:03 PM |
| Andrew, have you weaseled Brian into using 'A P VIN' corks in his 03s yet???   | | | |
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