JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
 | | 02/17/2005 12:13 AM |
| As my first response to Brian Loring stated my experience with these kinds of corks has been poor.
All maturity estimates within my reviews are my estimates. My analysis with wines that have this closure is to drink the wine now to avoid the risk presented by the closure. As the APVin review expressly states, the maturity estimate is based on the use of this cork. Its up to the reader to determine if my experience is sufficient enough to render the estimate reliable. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 02/17/2005 12:17 AM |
| | What is the risk presented by the closure as it pertains to fake corks? Do they decompose? | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:12891
| | 02/17/2005 12:23 AM |
| man, pull up a chair and get out some popcorn. is it starting to get hot in here?  | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/17/2005 12:24 AM |
| | They lose their fruit very rapidly in my experience. They prematurely oxidize. Have had some leakers but they don't seem to obviously leak more often than natural cork. I have a bunch of B&H in the cellar where I believe there is a pretty good chance they have been at least compromised. As a result, my opinion is to drink these wines up to avoid the risk. | | | |
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Andrew P. Vingiello
Grape Fermenter
Posts:418
| | 02/17/2005 12:26 AM |
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Since it is my wine we are talking about here...I thought (please let me know if it's not) worth my .03 to fill in the blanks on the use of synthetic cork in my bottles...and why I decided to use them.
Cork was out for the simple reason being...I wanted to make sure my inaugural wine was not going to be discounted as "poor wine making" if a "corked" bottle ended up in someones hands that did not have the greatest knowledge on determining corked wines. A two fold decision - on the consumer side I did not want "corked" wines going to my customers...makes for even more work on the consumer side...returning bottles, waiting, etc. - on the business side...I did not want to lose a customer over a bad bottle that I could have prevented. Add to that tiny production and cork taint rates running as high as 10%, losing 10% to cork taint did not sound good in my book.
As far as the aging...I am creating wines that I have the passion for and I enjoy to be shared with others that share that passion and enjoyment. It clearly states in my inaugural letter the potential and recommended window - "The wine is screaming “drink me now” and will drink beautifully for three to five years. " After recommendations and research, the use of Neocork fit right in with my product.
Screw cap...would love to do it (I'm all for it)...but the jury is still out over the final results of many circumstances and materials. Eventually...A.P. VIN would love to sit under a "cap".
Andrew | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/17/2005 12:32 AM |
| | AP Vin says to drink the wine now. That's what my review says too but because I don't like the closure used (and said so) I am now being taken to task by Brian Loring. Its happened before and I guess it will happen again. | | | |
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Brian Loring
Grape Sorter
Posts:386
| | 02/17/2005 1:31 AM |
| Quote:
Its unfortunate that you continue to attack me for any perceived (emphasis perceived) slight of your operation or an operation you provide input to such as AP Vin.
You know... I thought I was the only one that perceived that you seemed to slight things associated with me. I guess you perceived it as well - since I've never mentioned that.
And do you really think that Andrew and you said the same thing? Seriously? | | | |
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stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2813
| | 02/17/2005 2:06 AM |
| Not that anyone asked, but I perceive bottles sealed with synthetic corks (and composite corks) to be inferior to both the standard cork closure as well as the "adventurous" winery using screwcap.
I imagine that my perception is tainted by my experience -- I've usually found synthetic corks in bottles priced at or below the $teens. My experience with screwcaps includes some fine Aussie wines, without the negative connotation of "bum wines" (since I've never bothered to consume screw-capped jug wine).
I understand Andrew's logic, and I'll be happy to get over my biases to enjoy his wines -- earlier, rather than later. | |
Cheers, y'all | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/17/2005 2:13 AM |
| | No you have never expressly stated you are mad at me but that does not mean anything - its the only possible explanation for your behavior. I have not gushed over your wines and that evidently is why you repeatedly attack me over and over again. Anyone reviewing our past history would conclude exactly the same thing. Seriously, if there is anything I can do to end this animus you hold against me please let me know. | | | |
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stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2813
| | 02/17/2005 2:23 AM |
| | I sense another tasteoff in the making, and I want to be part of it! | |
Cheers, y'all | |
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GreenDrazi
Atlanta, GA
Grape Puncher
Posts:934
| | 02/17/2005 2:51 AM |
| Dan,
Although I agree that Brian’s analogy is not an accurate one, his response was a personal one in response to your use of the word “fake” (which seems as a personal, negative attack) when the overwhelming majority of people refer to synthetic cork as, well, ...... synthetic cork.
The use of the word fake, as in “not genuine,” IMHO come across with negative implications as to the vintner’s intentions when that is not at all the case. Why did you use the word “fake” when virtually everyone else is saying synthetic?
If you had said "... synthetic cork - that means drink this wine now," I don't think Brian would have a disagreement with you on this issue. | | | |
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Brian Loring
Grape Sorter
Posts:386
| | 02/17/2005 2:51 AM |
| Quote:
I have not gushed over your wines and that evidently is why you repeatedly attack me over and over again. Anyone reviewing our past history would conclude exactly the same thing.
I was going to let this drop, but playing the wounded victim was too much.
You think I'm mad because you don't like my wines? Dude, I've good friends who don't like my wines - and even say so on the boards now and then. I get into a TON of discussions about my wine, or general style of wine. And I don't get upset about that - in fact, it's fun to debate. It's HOW people say things that matters to me. I don't like HOW you say things about me and other winemakers. It often makes me mad. If you'll review the past history, I think you'll see that I've only reacted to what you've said. If people think I'm off base here, I'll apologize - I won't comment again on anything you say - and you can always win. | | | |
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Brian Loring
Grape Sorter
Posts:386
| | 02/17/2005 2:53 AM |
| Quote:
If you had said "... synthetic cork - that means drink this wine now," I don't think Brian would have a disagreement with you on this issue.
Exactly. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 02/17/2005 3:03 AM |
| | "Fake" and "synthetic" mean exactly the same, EXACTLY, when referring to corks. Any negative connotation to the term is nitpicking. A synthetic cork IS a fake cork. By the way, I admire the wineries going to this closure. I have no problem with fake corks til it is proven they are inferior. I do not believe any such proof has been made or is even close to having been made. the anecdotal reports are so far statistically insignificant. | | | |
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Eric White
San Ramon, CA
Advanced Sommelier
Posts:9158
| | 02/17/2005 3:17 AM |
| I have no horse in this particular race, but...
Quote:
"Fake" and "synthetic" mean exactly the same, EXACTLY, when referring to corks. Any negative connotation to the term is nitpicking.
I disagree. The definition may be the same, but the connotations are decidedly not, and that’s what is at issue.
Quote:
If people think I'm off base here, I'll apologize - I won't comment again on anything you say - and you can always win.
Brian, I for one hope you never stop speaking your mind on this forum. There is nothing wrong with open debate and challenging the positions of others, as long as it’s done without malice (and I see none here). | | | |
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Wineaux
New Orleans, LA
Barrel Filler
Posts:1413
| | 02/17/2005 3:20 AM |
| Your comments are interesting, Board O, since I do see "fake" as carrying a negative connotation that "synthetic" does not convey (although I'm not one for politically correct terms). I agree, however, with the rest of what your saying. I haven't seen any proof that "artificial" (is that a neutral term?) corks harm a wine and I believe the same can be said for screwcaps.
I will admit, though, that at times I've wondered whether a synthetic/artificial/fake cork can impart a rubbery flavor to wines? Does anyone have any info on this issue? | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 02/17/2005 3:23 AM |
| | I find it hard people are nitpicking over this issue. Is it just a slow night? Does anyone think that a synthetic cork is not a fake cork? How many angels can fit on the head of a pin? That ought to keep you going for a week. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/17/2005 4:04 AM |
| | Definitionally a synthetic/plastic/neocork/whatever you want to call it cork is a "fake cork" as it is not made from real cork. People have been complaining about reviews for eons and they will continue to complain about reviews for eons. No negative connotation about the wine was intended--only a comment on the closure used and when to drink the wine due to that choice. | | | |
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GreenDrazi
Atlanta, GA
Grape Puncher
Posts:934
| | 02/17/2005 4:48 AM |
| Dan,
You choose to use the word "fake" in lieu of the most common term "synthetic." I personally have never read the term fake in WS, WA or any other trade mag’s wine reviews/columns. "Fake" means "not genuine," which in a wine review (subjective) imparts negative connotations. "Synthetic" only implies a man-made synthesis to resemble something natural. Andrew was entirely genuine in his desire to use a synthetic cork. In a world where vintners live and die, to some degree, based on three or four sentences in a wine review, calling something fake is a powerfully negative term.
I'm in a profession where I have to present to clients and sell subjective designs all the time. Words that describe someone’s design, craft, or product have very powerful meaning. If I where to use the term "fake" in selling a design or a product to a client, I would not have clients for very long.
I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I certainly understand how a winemaker may not be too happy with your use of the term "fake." You say you did not intended any negative connotations, but you also say in this thread that you “don’t like this closure used.” Perhaps your dis-taste for this closure spilled over into the review - but is it really fair to make this an issue in a review of someone’s wine instead of an opinion column? If he had used a natural cork, would you have scored the wine higher?
I thoroughly enjoy your posts here in VC and I apologize for being verbose, nitpicking and argumentative in this thread - but I can easily understand where the winemakers are coming from. | | | |
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Marcel
Grape Puncher
Posts:875
| | 02/17/2005 5:13 AM |
| Regarding the "fake" discussion -
Even if "fake" has a negative connotation, didn't Jones already say he's not a fan of synthetic corks? He doesn't like the closure, he's using a negative term to describe it. He thinks it won't age well with it, he's saying "drink now". As long as it doesn't influence his evaluation, I don't see any problem with the terms used. Can't he or anyone else criticize synthetic corks?
As for GD's post, I understand your point, but there are two things I would like to comment:
Quote:
I'm in a profession where I have to present to clients and sell subjective designs all the time. Words that describe someone’s design, craft, or product have very powerful meaning. If I where to use the term "fake" in selling a design or a product to a client, I would not have clients for very long.
GD, I don't think Jones is selling AP wine. If he doesn't like the closure, I guess he has the right to say so.
Quote:
If he had used a natural cork, would you have scored the wine higher?
Now, this would be a whole different matter, but Jones already said it didn't influence his score, only his drinking window, so I still can't see the problem. | | | |
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