winebrat
Sacramento, Ca.
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2326
 | | 02/17/2005 7:40 PM |
| Quote:
Thanks for that data point. Andrew and I chose Neocork specifically because it was a newer technology, and was suppossed to have solved the sticking issue. The inner core makes almost any corkscrew seem like one of the expensive teflon coated ones. And they look cool in black! 
I open as you can imagine a lot of bottles every day and I have never ran across sticking issues with Neocork. Who else in the industry(of significant quality) that you know of uses this brand. | |
"Everyday is worthy of a glass of sparkling wine" - Andrea Immer MS | |
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Sacred Cow
Wine Thief
Posts:2764
| | 02/17/2005 7:42 PM |
| Ah, the fun of the English language. To look at both words:
cork (n): 2a. Something made of cork, especially a bottle stopper. b. A bottle stopper made of other material, such as plastic.
Basically, anything can be considered a cork, even a screw cap.
fake (adj): 1: fraudulent; having a misleading appearance [syn: bogus, phony, phoney, bastard]
2: not genuine or real; being an imitation of the genuine article; "it isn't fake anything; it's real synthetic fur"; "faux pearls"; "false teeth"; "decorated with imitation palm leaves"; "a purse of simulated alligator hide" [syn: false, faux, imitation, simulated]
So, fake can be used as an adjective to describe cork (a noun). However, since any bottle stopper can be a cork, fake is at best redundant, and at worst completely wrong. So in this example, fake should not be used to describe any cork. I no longer think fake is accurate, I agree with dgoerisch.
The confusing and enjoyable part of the English language is what happens when you string these two words together. "Fake cork" is incorrect usage if one assumes fake to be an adjective. But once the two words are joined together to communicate something, can "fake cork" be considered a proper noun? In other words, in common usage, will people understand that the communicator means a specific type of cork, or do they think fake is an adjective?
I daresay that the two words are not (yet) a proper noun. So it might be best to use adjectives, such as synthetic or natural to modify cork. To make it a proper noun, the brand name Neocork can be used, if that indeed is the brand name of the cork in use.
But, as our language continues to develop, "fake cork" may some day become a proper noun, if that usage begins to predominate.
So, the common usage of the word cork is inaccurate, since it describes any bottle stopper. Which means fake as an adjective is also inaccurate. And thus, we have our little failure to communicate here.
Mike | | | |
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skwid
Wine Connoisseur
Posts:5452
| | 02/17/2005 7:44 PM |
| | Question on the Neocork brand. Can one use an Ahso with these corks or must one use a tool with a screw (waiters corkscrew, rabbit, screwpull, ...). What about using one of those cheap winged corkscrews that all the nonwino friends seem to have? Will these work? | | | |
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JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Lover
Posts:4982
| | 02/17/2005 7:54 PM |
| Quote:
fake is negative imo, plain and simple. when i read fake my mind immediately thinks cheap and that leads to negative thoughts. everyone here can play words games all day, but at the end of the day, i would be willing to bet the farm, the average person equates fake with bad.
I think you'll lose that farm. As Mike points out above, (or, more accurately, the definitions he cites point out), the word fake is often placed before the words "fur", "pearls", and "teeth". Now in the latter two, we use "faux", and "false", but the meaning is the same. Do you think of someone with "false teeth" to be cheap? Is someone with a fake fur cheap, or are they trying to stay warm within certain ethical bounds that they have set for themselves? I'll bet my farm that your wife has fake pearl earrings and/or a necklace. Is she cheap? Are you, if you gave them to her?
Again this proves that the word fake only has negative implications if you want it to. It isn't mandated. | |
Beta testing a new signature. | |
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ChangeMe
Grape Stomper
Posts:132
| | 02/17/2005 7:55 PM |
| | There is one very obvious circumstance where I believe 'fake' can have a VERY positive connotation.... err...uhm...ahh..here.... Fake = good | | | |
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JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Lover
Posts:4982
| | 02/17/2005 7:56 PM |
| | I have used an Ahso on a fake cork. It works, but it takes more effort, as there is more slippage. Probably something to do with friction coefficients and/or surface tension. You know better than me. | |
Beta testing a new signature. | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts:12248
| | 02/17/2005 7:58 PM |
| | WaltNYC: that was most excellent! Fuuuunny... | | | |
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Wineaux
New Orleans, LA
Barrel Filler
Posts:1413
| | 02/17/2005 8:00 PM |
| | Point of clarification - I mentioned earlier that I broke a Screwpull Lever Model trying to extract a synthetic cork. I can't recall the wine or the type of cork but it wasn't the neocork that LWC uses. My experience with neocorks has been quite good. They come out as easily as a real cork. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:12891
| | 02/17/2005 8:03 PM |
| mike,
my head is spinning after that one   | | | |
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Sacred Cow
Wine Thief
Posts:2764
| | 02/17/2005 8:11 PM |
| More simply:
"Fake" by itself can have negative connotations, and usually does. I suppose one can say it also has neutral connotations, but I think it would be a push to say it has any positive connotations at all. In any case, using the word fake to modify cork is at best confusing and imprecise and leads to miscommunication.
Now, I frankly think it is wrong to use the two together.
Mike | | | |
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Budman
Master of Wine
Posts:11814
| | 02/17/2005 8:32 PM |
| | I have rarely seen the word 'fake' used to modify any noun unless the connotation was negative. | | | |
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R8der
Livermore, CA
Barrel Filler
Posts:1024
| | 02/17/2005 8:40 PM |
| Quote:
Quote:
Yet on another note: It is hell opening bottles with those plastic corks. Hell, I tell you. Hell.
I can say that I have Loring and A.P. Vin on my list and have never had troubles extracting the corks.
I have also had no problems opening Loring or A.P. Vin wines. Using my Rabbit, they actually come out easier than any other cork I've ever pulled.
I agree with Brian that they do look damn cool. I've saved every one of them that I've pulled so far. I have no idea why.....but I'm going to use them for something someday!
Chris | | | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts:12248
| | 02/17/2005 8:43 PM |
| Well, I must be slow or handicapped then, because opening the AP Vin bottle is the bottle I had in mind...since I do not buy too many wines with such corks. I try to stay away from wines with those corks, not a fan.
By the way, I no longer buy B&H wines. They use those corks also. But, it more has to do with the wine then the cork... | | | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts:12248
| | 02/17/2005 9:04 PM |
| You know @ the end of the day all of us English-major geniuses can discuss this until there is no more grapes growing in Napa Valley...
It all comes down to this: Would we be having this conversation & 70+ posts IF the rating was a 92? How about a 95? Would we be having the same conversation???
Honestly? | | | |
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ChangeMe
Grape Stomper
Posts:132
| | 02/17/2005 9:05 PM |
| | LCC: That was my point too. | | | |
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Drew
Sammamish, WA
Wine Thief
Posts:2955
| | 02/17/2005 9:11 PM |
| I can't believe so many people are posting dictionary entries, etc. on the meaning of the word "fake." Even if one stipulates that's it's a neutral descriptor, the review of the wine itself is not a positive one. I think it plays fairly for the message he's trying to convey - this is an O.K. bottle of wine. Words like "one dimensional" and "fake" go with his rating of 86, which is decidedly mediocre for a $44 bottle of wine. Quibbling over the adjective is missing the forest for the trees.
That said, I personally could not disagree more with the rating and I'm pleased to no end that I ordered a full 6 bottle allocation and was fortunate enough to get three additional at the time of order. I've very much enjoyed the bottles I've opened, as have the people I've shared them with. I may not have the sophisticated palate Jones has, but at the end of the day, I think Andrew and Brian are making their wines for people to enjoy and, in my humble opinion, they have succeeded.
Andrew | | | |
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GreenDrazi
Atlanta, GA
Grape Puncher
Posts:917
| | 02/17/2005 9:56 PM |
| This has been a rather funny, but healthy, civil debate. And that’s what I enjoy about VC - a generally positive debate, free from the posturing, name calling and childish taunts found in other forums. Sort of similar thoughts as to Dr. T’s recent thread called “Wine Boards.”
You folks are neither fake nor synthetic. | | | |
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Brent Null
Roseville, CA
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2192
| | 02/17/2005 9:59 PM |
| | IMHO...Cork is what it does, not what it is. As in 'put a cork in it'. I don't think it necessarily has to be made of cork to perform the function of a cork to be called a cork. Make sense? | | | |
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stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2807
| | 02/17/2005 10:05 PM |
| | No. Put a cork in it. | |
Cheers, y'all | |
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wineismylife
Arlington, TX
Master of Wine
Posts:11872
| | 02/17/2005 10:16 PM |
| Quote:
And that’s what I enjoy about VC - a generally positive debate, free from the posturing, name calling and childish taunts found in other forums.
Who asked for your opinion you ignoramous?  | |
Joe
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Wine is like potato chips around me...if it's open, it's gone. | |
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