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GreenDrazi
Atlanta, GA
Grape Puncher
Posts:917
 | | 02/17/2005 6:12 AM |
| Mars,
I drew parallels to my profession only to say that I know the negative impact of using a word like fake when using it as a descriptor for something very subjective or to sell something. To a large degree, winemakers are dependent upon a critic to sell his wine based on their review. I was not trying to say Dan or a wine critic is themselves trying to sell something or a wine. My apologies if it sounded otherwise.
As for your second point, you are correct - Dan did say earlier that this score was based solely on the taste of the wine.
My problem with his use of the term fake is how it affects the audience. He writes reviews for other people to read - not just his own gratification. There are plenty of people who the use of “fake” doesn’t bother, but IMHO, the average person is going to see the use of the word fake as a negative. I thought it was odd when I read it. | | | |
| wineismylife
Arlington, TX
Master of Wine
Posts:11872
| | 02/17/2005 2:29 PM |
| Well this was a real blast to read after being offline last night. | |
Joe
-----
Wine is like potato chips around me...if it's open, it's gone. | |
| Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13627
| | 02/17/2005 2:43 PM |
| I don't like fake/synthetic/not-real cork either. I prefer either real and whole cork (I am not a fan of glued together composite cork either) or screwcaps/stelvins. I do not have a problem with using the term 'fake' to describe these synthetic corks. But I am not a winemaking dude, so I am perhaps less sensitive to this descriptor.
All of this said, I love my Loring wines -- fake corks or not. I drink them all quite young and so I have not had any real problems with this type of enclosure. I think it would be ideal if I could experiment with some of Brian's wines by letting them age for a bit more than I usually do, but I am loathe to do this primarily for the fact that the wines are stoppered with the synthetic/fake closure. | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
| JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Lover
Posts:4982
| | 02/17/2005 3:02 PM |
| Nobody asked me but...
To me, (and I have not consulted any dictionary sources prior to posting), the word "fake" implies a copy that is trying to pass itself off as an original. There is an inherent intent to deceive. Therein lies the negative implication. But before you conclude that I am siding against the use of the term as used in the review in question, hold your horses. I think it is the perfect word. A plastic plug in the end of a wine bottle is a substance that is trying to serve the same purpose as a cork. It is holding itself out as capable of performing the same function in the same manner as the piece of tree bark. That is the essence of the word "fake". It is a substitute that claims to be as good as the original. (Whether or not is is as good as the original, or perhaps better, I currently have no opinion, (a first, I know), as I do not have enough empirical evidence one way or the other.)
I think the term "synthetic" is overused industry hype. Synthetic implies a manmade substance that has all of the qualities of the original. The plastic plug in the wine bottle is not "synthetic cork". It is a piece of plastic. Just as polyester is not "synthetic cotton". It is a plastic polymer. Shed Spread is not "synthetic butter". But people put it to the same uses. It is "fake" butter plain and simple. But to say something is fake is not necessarily to demean it. It is to describe it as "trying to pass itself off as the original". That print of Van Gogh's "Starry Night" that hangs in every other dorm room in the country is not a "synthetic" print. It is a reproduction. A copy. A fake. Yet we hold nothing against its owner for being such. | |
Beta testing a new signature. | |
| love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts:12248
| | 02/17/2005 4:12 PM |
| Ahhh Jimmy, Jimmy, Jimmy. I am not here to boast your ego (few others also mentioned this), but few express themselves on your level. It's true...
Ummm, I think that Jimmy hit the nail on the head. The wine industry has "forced" this politically correct term on us (g-d knows society has done that to us on many levels also).
I, for one, believe that the cork did not affect his evaluation of the wine itself. That's what Jones explained & I find no reason not to believe him. There is no such past history that Jones is dishonest in his evaluation on any one bottle. The one thing you can depend on (with Jones) is honesty & true opinion about any one bottle. On some level, that's what people don't like, actually... (not thinking of any one person in particular).
As far as the word "fake", every one of us reading that review &/or this thread will judge its use... | | | |
| mountainman
Mammoth Mountain
Wine Bottler
Posts:3074
| | 02/17/2005 4:27 PM |
| I think Andrew (AP Vin) has the most appropriate current avatar that I have ever seen.  | | | |
| wineismylife
Arlington, TX
Master of Wine
Posts:11872
| | 02/17/2005 4:33 PM |
| | All of this fuss because the word "fake" is used to describe a closure meant to replace another closure that causes tainted wines. I think I'll direct my outrage at the original closure myself. I'm tired of opening wines tainted from bad corks. Bring on the screw caps! | |
Joe
-----
Wine is like potato chips around me...if it's open, it's gone. | |
| Sacred Cow
Wine Thief
Posts:2764
| | 02/17/2005 4:36 PM |
| fake
adj 1: fraudulent; having a misleading appearance [syn: bogus, phony, phoney, bastard]
2: not genuine or real; being an imitation of the genuine article; "it isn't fake anything; it's real synthetic fur"; "faux pearls"; "false teeth"; "decorated with imitation palm leaves"; "a purse of simulated alligator hide" [syn: false, faux, imitation, simulated]
Just a little something more for everyone to argue about. In definition number one, I would suggest Andrew's cork is not fraudulent, nor does it have a misleading appearance.
Though it does look like a cork, there is certainly no intention to mislead. The misleading appearance case is harder to argue, though I think we would all agree it is not fraudulent.
In definition number two, I would suggest his cork is not genuine or real. The example of real synthetic fur is an obvious oxymoron. So I would think "fake" is accurate.
However the dictionary definition reads, "fake" certainly does have a negative connotation in the minds of most people. Or is it just me? Whether that negative connotation is intended or not, only the communicator knows, and since he is so precise with his words, I would guess he meant it to come out that way.
But then, attributing motivations to people is a minefield I prefer not to enter. Since communication is a two way street, the person speaking has to consider how his words are received by the listener. We all interpret differently. And Jones may not have meant a negative connotation, even though his subsequent posts make it pretty clear that he dislikes "fake" corks.
So, to wrap it up and get back to tax returns, by using the word "fake cork" I think Jones intended a negative connotation (attributing motivations), and more than a few readers took it that way, including me. Some even took offense, not including me. But he did communicate his beliefs in a very economical and succinct fashion. His words seem technically accurate and precise, even if people do not agree with his conclusion.
Mike | | | |
| dgoerisch
St. Louis
Grape Stomper
Posts:195
| | 02/17/2005 5:00 PM |
| Speaking of dictionary definitions, how about the following definition of "cork" from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition (2000) (specifically 2b):
1. The lightweight elastic outer bark of the cork oak, used especially for bottle closures, insulation, floats, and crafts. 2a. Something made of cork, especially a bottle stopper. b. A bottle stopper made of other material, such as plastic. 3. A small float used on a fishing line or net to buoy up the line or net or to indicate when a fish bites. 4. Botany A nonliving, water-resistant protective tissue that is formed on the outside of the cork cambium in the woody stems and roots of many seed plants. Also called phellem.
Thus, it is proper to call any bottle stopper a cork, whether it is made of cork, plastic, rubber, or some other material. Of course, it would be more descriptive to call it a plastic cork, rubber cork, or synthetic cork, but I think definition 2b would make it improper to refer to it as a fake cork. There are simply different types of corks/bottle stoppers...they don't all have to be made from cork oak. Just my $.02. | | | |
| love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts:12248
| | 02/17/2005 5:09 PM |
| wineismylife: you are telling me that there is definite proof of that? If so, fine. If NOT, I want my regular cork & nothing else.
Another interesting note: My brother (collecting wine since '92) refuses & will not buy any wine with a screw cap or rubber cork. He dropped a few producers just for those reasons…
Yet on another note: It is hell opening bottles with those plastic corks. Hell, I tell you. Hell. More than a few times, I sought help from others in frustration as I did not want to put up with the hassle. I handed the bottle to others & said, “here, you open this damn bottle.” | | | |
| ChangeMe
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2042
| | 02/17/2005 5:16 PM |
| | I can't speak to motivation behind the phrasing, but have to admit it fairly jumped off the page when I read the review. I agree with most that "fake" has a negative connotation for me. | | | |
| AlexRed
Northern VA
Barrel Filler
Posts:1335
| | 02/17/2005 5:27 PM |
| maybe it should just be synthetic closure... then there is no "fake" , no "cork", no naming issue...
obviously it isn't trying to behave exaclty like cork ( or be "fake" "cork") because cork being cork is part of the problem.
alternative closure, plastic closure, synthetic closure... the use of the word cork in descriptors is the problem, it isn't "cork" so the word shouldn't be used... unless people agree the the word cork is transcending the actual bark material it historically describes, to now be used universally for objects pluging bottles or holes (and then that eliminates the need for the word "fake" in front of it...)
otherwise the word should be avoided when talking about things not made of cork.
if the tree were able to talk would it have sued or placed an injunction or something on terms using the word cork that weren't "cork"... a la "Champagne" etc...?
ahaha... I percieved a negative conotation from jones's use of the word fake, but i like the wine anyway (his words won't affect that).... and jones can say whatever he likes really... i do enjoy and appreciate reading his notes for his knowledge and breadth of tasting experience. fair enough. While in my limited experience i have not experienced problems, i appreciate his speaking about the specific instances that have led to his general dissatisfaction with synthetic closures. | | | |
| GreenDrazi
Atlanta, GA
Grape Puncher
Posts:917
| | 02/17/2005 5:32 PM |
| “Fake” does have negative connotations. The synonyms for “fake” are the words “counterfeit” and “sham.” Neither Brian, nor Andrew, nor other winemakers, nor the synthetic cork industry are trying to deceive (“trying to pass itself off as an original”) anyone about their closure. In fact, just the opposite - their intentions are genuine efforts to solve problems with natural cork and have chosen an alternative which in some respects is better (and in some respects, not.) Now, a person’s position on the use of “synthetic cork” may be that you believe them to be counterfeit and/or a sham, but that’s not these vintners intentions and not the prevailing view.
On occasion when I call synthetic butter“fake butter” instead of “margarine” I may be trying to be funny, but I do mean it to have negative implications, albeit slight.
Mike,
Thanks for typing all that and saving me the effort.
Aarrrgghhh, I can’t believe I’m still arguing this!  | | | |
| Sacred Cow
Wine Thief
Posts:2764
| | 02/17/2005 5:36 PM |
| Quote:
Speaking of dictionary definitions, how about the following definition of "cork" from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition (2000) (specifically 2b):
1. The lightweight elastic outer bark of the cork oak, used especially for bottle closures, insulation, floats, and crafts. 2a. Something made of cork, especially a bottle stopper. b. A bottle stopper made of other material, such as plastic. 3. A small float used on a fishing line or net to buoy up the line or net or to indicate when a fish bites. 4. Botany A nonliving, water-resistant protective tissue that is formed on the outside of the cork cambium in the woody stems and roots of many seed plants. Also called phellem.
Thus, it is proper to call any bottle stopper a cork, whether it is made of cork, plastic, rubber, or some other material. Of course, it would be more descriptive to call it a plastic cork, rubber cork, or synthetic cork, but I think definition 2b would make it improper to refer to it as a fake cork. There are simply different types of corks/bottle stoppers...they don't all have to be made from cork oak. Just my $.02.
Well, apparently my analysis did not go far enough. This is very interesting, but not enough time to digest it right now. It certainly would refute a part of my argument above.
Have to go, but thanks dgoerisch!
Mike | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Stomper
Posts:132
| | 02/17/2005 7:07 PM |
| Quote:
"2003 A.P.Vin Pinot Noir. Garys' Vineyard, Santa Lucia Highlands, Monterey County, California. 14.9% alcohol. $44. 150 cases produced.
Raised in 50% new French oak and then bottled unfined and unfiltered, this deeply colored wine has pleasing aromas of plum, light oak, and vanilla. Amorphous (plum) syrupy fruit in the mouth with slightly elevated acidity and a bit of a burn on the finish. Closed with a fake cork - that means drink this wine now. One dimensional but attractive. 86 points."
Parsing the word 'fake' and analyzing it in a vacuum does nothing for me. I have no idea what the true intention was. I do know that if I were a winemaker who took my craft seriously, I'd be unhappy with this review. The choice of the word 'fake' just adds to the negativity pouring out of the tasting note. I think looking at the entirety of the note, one might draw the conclusion that the reviewer is rather dismissive of the wine and everything about it.
Had Jones used the term 'fake cork' in a more flattering review, and then gone on a rant about how little he cares for that closure, I believe it would have been interpreted differently. He didn't so it wasn't.
Question, since I don't read the oeno-file, has Jones reviewed any other wine with a 'non-cork' closure and used the same terminology? | | | |
| Brian Loring
Grape Sorter
Posts:386
| | 02/17/2005 7:09 PM |
| OK, since it looks like we've moved off into an academic discussion on the word fake, I guess I'll play a little bit longer.
Quote:
But to say something is fake is not necessarily to demean it. It is to describe it as "trying to pass itself off as the original". That print of Van Gogh's "Starry Night" that hangs in every other dorm room in the country is not a "synthetic" print. It is a reproduction. A copy. A fake. Yet we hold nothing against its owner for being such.
I'm glad you brought up the art world. The word fake has certain significance when it comes to art. There is a huge difference between a print, a limited reproduction, the real thing, and a fake. Saying something is fake does imply a criminal level of deception.
Quote:
A plastic plug in the end of a wine bottle is a substance that is trying to serve the same purpose as a cork. It is holding itself out as capable of performing the same function in the same manner as the piece of tree bark. That is the essence of the word "fake". It is a substitute that claims to be as good as the original. (Whether or not is is as good as the original, or perhaps better, I currently have no opinion, (a first, I know), as I do not have enough empirical evidence one way or the other.)
By extention of the example, I conclude that anything that replicates the function of something else is a fake, right? A CD is just a fake 8 Track, a DVD is just a fake VCR, and a car is just a fake horse. | | | |
| winebrat
Sacramento, Ca.
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2326
| | 02/17/2005 7:27 PM |
| Quote:
Yet on another note: It is hell opening bottles with those plastic corks. Hell, I tell you. Hell.
Try doing it elegantly tableside while the customers are staring at you like you are a joke, because you can't extract a fake/synthetic (whatever it is) cork. It is more than embarrasing. NZ Sauv. Blanc is ridiculous sometimes. I love opening screwcaps tableside, because it always sparks good conversation with my customers, and I have never had a nose turned up after I have explained the reasoning of a stelvin.
Because I run across so many TCA tainted wines I always keep one on hand to educate my customers on the affects that TCA has on the juice.
I can say that I have Loring and A.P. Vin on my list and have never had troubles extracting the corks. | |
"Everyday is worthy of a glass of sparkling wine" - Andrea Immer MS | |
| Brian Loring
Grape Sorter
Posts:386
| | 02/17/2005 7:32 PM |
| Quote:
I can say that I have Loring and A.P. Vin on my list and have never had troubles extracting the corks.
Thanks for that data point. Andrew and I chose Neocork specifically because it was a newer technology, and was suppossed to have solved the sticking issue. The inner core makes almost any corkscrew seem like one of the expensive teflon coated ones. And they look cool in black! | | | |
| JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Lover
Posts:4982
| | 02/17/2005 7:33 PM |
| Quote:
It is holding itself out as capable of performing the same function in the same manner as the piece of tree bark. That is the essence of the word "fake". It is a substitute that claims to be as good as the original.
How you could read the words "capable of performing the same function..." and "a substitute that claims to be as good as the original" and "conclude" that a CD is a fake 8 track is incomprehensible. Go ahead and try to put your 8 track tape into a CD player and see what happens. Now, put a polyester shirt on instead of a cotton one. See the difference? The plastic plug is directly analogous to the polyester shirt. But describing polyester as "fake cotton" does not, in any sense of the word, imply a criminal level of deception. And it takes on a pejorative meaning only if you let it. Such an interpretation is not mandated.
I will agree with you that "fake" in the art world is almost always pejorative. When a neocork hangs in the MOMA, and someone calls it "fake", then you can come out with guns blazing. | |
Beta testing a new signature. | |
| ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:12891
| | 02/17/2005 7:40 PM |
| just my $.02's worth.
fake is negative imo, plain and simple. when i read fake my mind immediately thinks cheap and that leads to negative thoughts. everyone here can play words games all day, but at the end of the day, i would be willing to bet the farm, the average person equates fake with bad. | | | |
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