Water white, green hints, medium nose of slate, honey, dried fruits and smoke. Full body, full intensity and medium plus acidity. Structured with great layering, unctuous and balanced. 94pts.

Over the last 20+ years, I've been disturbed to find that German wines have become lighter-flavoured than ever, and to be honest the main reason I attended the tasting of 2005 VDP wines in London in June was to find wines with the kind of full-flavoured intensity I remember from the mid 70's. This was one of the stars of the show for me, so much so that I wrote a fairly lengthy page about them, or to be more accurate about the lack of intensity in most German wines of today. You can find it on my website at http://www.germanwinesdirect.org/zillikens-secret.htm

To be honest I found that both the 75 and 76's and the 71's had more concentration than virtually any wine I've tasted in recent years, and I really wasn't referring to levels of botrytis. I've tasted many 98's with high levels of botrytis, and few of those approached the levels of intensity I remember. Thankfully Zilliken's wines do. I'd LOVE to know what his secret is. I was actually expecting his wines to have this kind of intensity, as I bought 2 bottles (I'm fairly sure they were his wines) from the local tourist office while I was on holiday in Trier a few years ago. I didn't make tasting notes of them at the time, something I've always regretted, as I was very busy making contact with several winemakers. The funny thing is that on my regular visits to Germany, every so often I come across wine from winemakers even I've never heard of that is very full-flavoured indeed. One such wine was being sold by the glass on a Mosel riverboat. I've no idea what it was, but it was very good indeed, and very cheap, at only around 2 Euro's for a very large glass!
Richard Vernon.

Well I would sure like to know what wines you think are not full flavored. I'm sitting here with a 2000 Kabinett from Muller-Catoir that has all the stuffing I could ever want in a wine at this pradikat level. In fact it really seems as though most producers are falling all over themselves to make bigger, richer wines.

Interesting discussion. Since I got started on the 71's and later some 75's and 76's, I have very fond memories of them. For some reason I lost interest in wines for 20+ years and now I am enjoying the 01'-03's. Actually, I find the 03's to be the most intense wines I've experienced. In some ways that is not always a good thing.

To me there's a difference - and a big one - between a wine being 'big' and being 'full-flavoured'. I'd certainly agree that the 2003's are 'big', but I wouldn't say they have all that much flavour. Many of the 05's seem to me to have , shall we say, greater intensity of flavour, though they're often lighter bodied, with both higher, and sharper, acidity. I'm not really a fan of the 03's, to be honest, prefering both the 04's and 05's, and also the 01's. But tasting Zilliken's range of 05's from GKA up brought back memories of the intensity, the DEPTH of flavour, that I can easily remember from the mid 70's. I'll admit that virtually every vintage I've tasted since the 75's and 76's has been at least a slight disappointment to me, and I include the 1983's in that. I'm not talking about the QUALITY of flavour, or whether or not a wine is 'big', simply in terms of the intensity of flavour. As I said in the article on my website, I'm fairly sure this has something to do with modern filtration techniques, but I'm sure Mr. Zilliken knows what the cause is. When I met him he knew exactly how much flavour his 05's had, and beamed broadly when I said 'Now THIS is what I'm looking for; I can TASTE these wines'. He immediately said that his wines had excellent concentration, which I thought was rather uncessesary, as I could certainly taste that! I hope I've expressed myself cleary enough to not be misunderstood, but of course using words to describe a taste can only ever be a poor subsitute.
Richard Vernon.

Rieslingfan, I agree with you about the balance part. I think I understand where Mr. Eiswein is coming from. I have to say that this discussion brings back very fond memories of the '71's.

I have to say that I had an '02 Christoffel Urziger Wurtzgarten auslese* that was really stunning and had some of that intensity that is nice to see.

Thanks for the expanded explanation. I did not taste the '71s or '75s young, so I cannot comment on that. I do find it surprising that the '01s did not satisfy you though. The '01s, especially from the Middle-Mosel have a depth of flavor and intensity that is far and above any other recent vintage, with the exception of the top class '05s (I do not think '05 is as strong as '01 across the board, but its high spots are astounding).

A couple of other quesitons if I may:

- Are you mostly a noble sweet wine drinker? If so I would completely agree that the more recent sweet wines have gone in the direction of elegance and do not have the intensity of older examples. BA and TBA are much more elegant now than some of the older examples I have tried. A '76 Prum LGK BA is still my benchmark German stickie.

- Do you think the same issue applies to kabinett and spatlese? I am a huge fan of Donnhoff, and I am trying to get my head around the idea that the wines are not full flavored. To my taste, while they are elegant, they also have some of the most complex, intense and persistent flavors I can imagine.

Like I said before, not meaning to be in any way argumentive, just curious about your views.

Here's a brief history of my wine drinking: I first started drinking Spatlese and Auslese around 1977, when the 75's and 76's were young, and when the 71's were in their prime. Over the years it became increasingly difficult to find fine German wines in ordinary wine-shops in London (I used to be able to buy Egon Muller's wines a bottle at a time at very ordinary prices, but certainly can't do THAT any more!) so eventually I started visiting the Mosel 2-4 times a year. While I'm there I drink spatlese and auslese, but mainly bring back eiswein, partly because it's rather concentrated, and partly because a half-bottle is far more carriable than a full bottle. Also, the price in Germany is often very reasonable, something you can't say about buying eiswein in London. For several years I drank virtually only eiswein at home. I was given the name 'Mr Eiswein' by a lady running a tiny wine shop in Bernkastel, who recoginsed me with my suitcase empty except for bubble-wrap and knew what I was after. Eventually I made direct contact with quite a few winemakers and started getting them to send wine direct to me in London, so now I only drink about one bottle of eiswein a month, and mostly stick to spatlese and auslese. I've never really been keen on BA or TBA wines, as I find them lacking in acidity. Now, do I consider Kabinett and Spatlese wines of today lacking in flavour? Yes, for the most part, though I rarely ever drink Kabinetts. In fact I'd say the problem is WORST with spatlese and auslese wines. I have however heard that Donnhoff wines ARE concentrated. Maybe he also know's Zilliken's secret. Sadly I didn't get to taste them at the VDP tasting in London in June, I can't remember why, I'm sure they were there, unlike Egon Muller's wines - only empty bottles, I'm afraid. But if you can get hold of a bottle of Zilliken's 05's, I suggest you take the opportunity, even though they're expensive (at least the London price is).
Richard Vernon.

Based on your drinking habits, I have a better perspective of where you are coming from. I opened a Darting last week (01 Darting Durkheimer Nonnengarten auslese) and it took me days to get used to drinking spatlesen again.

I'm sure I don't find recent vintages somewhat lacking in intensity because I've been drinking a lot of eiswein, although the opposite is true: I've been drinking a lot of eiswein because I find most recent spatlese and auslese rather disappointing. I've noticed a fall-off in intensity ever since the early 80's: the 81's weren't great, and the 82's were drowned by rain at harvest-time, but the 83's mostly weren't as concentrated as I'd have hoped, and frankly the situation has got worse since, in my opinion. However there ARE exceptions such as Zilliken's wines and others, but in the 70's wines with almost this concentration were pretty much the standard. I really wish German winemakers would realise this, find out why, and sort it out. I'm convinced Mr. Zilliken has made a deliberate effort to return to the kind of intense, full-flavoured wines I remember, and I wish others would do the same. Tasting the wines at the VDP tasting, and also those at another group tasting organised by a London wine-merchant brought it home to me just how much of a gulf there is between those wines with this intensity, and those without.

Who are some of the producers you are disappointed with? I looked at the list on your site, and to be honest most of them were not household names for me. I'm mostly buying Donnhoff, Weil, Christoffel, Darting, J. J. Prum, St. Urbans-Hof, Rheinhold Haart, Vollenweider, Selbach-Oster, Strub, Gunderloch, Zilliken, Schafer-Frohlich, Emerich-Schoenleber, Leitz, Wittmann, von Buhl, Grunhaus and Spreitzer (to name some of my buys from '99-'05).

A lot of the old guard estates have lost their way, and slipped off the quality radar. Estates like vin Simmern, Schloss Shonborn, Schloss Johannisberg, Kloster Eberbach, etc. are starting to make comebacks now, but really are not at all what they used to be.

Sorry to be a pest, but I am not buying the premise, especially if you are that much of an eiswein drinker. Has it skewed your perspective?

I don't really want to name names as I don't think it would be helpful, but I'd include many famous names amongst them, from both the Mosel, Rheingau, and probably many more areas. I'd certainly agree that Schloss Johannisberg, Schloss Vollrads and many others from the Rheingau have lost their way big-time in recent years. I've had several expensive bottles of both Schloss J and Schloss V over the last few years that were simply bland in the extreme, and a huge disappointment. But I've also had many Mosel wines I could say the same about, and what really concerns me is that this seems to be so widespread that now the few growers whose wines ARE what I would term full-flavoured such as Zilliken, Selbach-Oster (although to a slighlty lesser extent), and Donnhof are now the exception rather than the norm. You're right that many of the growers listed on my website are not household names, especially in America, but I have found their wines to usually be preferable to the 'superstar' winemakers. This is yet another fact that seems to me to be evidence that modern winemaking techniques are the root cause: many winemakers who do NOT use the latest technology seem to produce wines with more flavour that many of thise who do. Of course, some of the winemakers on my website such as the Bischofliches Weinguter and the Vereinigte Hospitien are very famous indeed, and 30 years ago were rated amongst the very best in Germany. I still do rate them that highly, but the fashion is for ever drier wine, even in the GKA category, and my guess is that the main reason for this is that it's an attempt to give otherwise bland wines a little bit of flavour by giving them more alcohol. Thankfully they've largely resisted this trend so far.

I noticed the Vereinigte Hospitien on your site. A few of their wines make it to the USA. I am cellaring some GK Auslese from them. There's no real issue with naming names on this site. In fact it would make your comments much easier to understand.

If you are talking overrated "superstar" estates, I would put Loosen, Diel and Keller in that category. I've had extensive experience with Loosen and almost never been impressed, though an '01 Prälat GK Auslese was and is fantastic.

I'm pleased to see you enjoy the wines of Selbach-Oster. I actually find them to be rather underrated in the current fashion.

I hadn't tasted Selbach-Oster wines for many years until a tasting at a London wine-merchants about a month ago, and I was very impressed. I'll visit them the next time I go to Zeltingen. As for Loosen I have to agree again, though I really don't want to bad-mouth ANY winemaker. I'm sure none of them make bland wines deliberately, I'm convinced it's just the onward march of technology, and that little by little, year by year, flavour is disappearing. Having said that, I will to some extent name some very famous names indeed: The three owners of the original Berkasteler Doktor vineyard prior to the 1971 enlargement, Deinhard (now Wegeler), Thanisch (now split into two separate estates both called Thanisch), and Lauerburg. Back in the 70's I had many fine bottles of both Bernkasteler Doktor and Bernkasteler Badstube from both Deinhard and Thanisch - I'm not sure about Lauerburg, but it's very possible - and virtually every single one had what I regard as the trademark of the best wines of Bernkastel, that hugely complex slatiness that is rarely found in other wines. Over the last few years I've bought many expensive bottles from all these growers, both Doktor and Badstube, and frankly I find it hard to even recognise them as Bernkastel wines without concentrating extremely hard on the flavour. I never had to TRY to taste the flavour of Bernkastel wines before, it was just so obviously THERE. I must point out that in no way am I trying to say that these winemakers are any worse than any others, I don't believe that to be true, and these comments absolutely and definitely do NOT apply to Wegeler's 2004 Doktor Eiswein, which is one of the very finest Eisweins I've ever tasted. The funny thing is that it seems to me that a certain amount of flavour - a more or less fixed amount - is being lost regardless of the category of wine, and that means that BA, TBA and Eiswein have hardly been affected, whereas Kabinett, Spatlese, etc. have been badly affected. Is this possible? I think it is. There's a very interesting quote in a book written originally by an American called Frank Schoonmaker, revised by Peter Sichel called 'The Wines of Germany'. I don't have the book with me, but I'll get it tomorrow. Basically it's a reference to the way Centrifugal Separators have improved wine from the Rheinfalz, and how they have enabled winemakers to remove 'Bodengeschmack', a highly unpleasant earthy flavour from their wines. This makes me think that if modern technology can do that, it's almost certainly capable of removing a large percentage of flavour that I for one would like to keep.

It's very interesting to me that you metion the wines from the Bernkasteler Doctor. The only very good botle of Doctor wine I have ever had was a 1976 Thanisch Auslese. All of the owning estates have fallen on hard times. Wegeler and Thanisch-Erben are starting to make a comeback, but only starting. Kesselstatt now owns some land in the Doctor.

The one thing I have noticed in all my study and drinking of German wine is that most of the old guard, with the exception of names like J. J. Prum and Fritz Haag have fallen way off. But there are so many newer generations at producers that have really stepped up quality. Selbach-Oster has been around forever, but Johannes (and the recently deceased Hans) Selbach have made that estate a top contender in the Mosel. But there'as so many more. I'm actually more hesitant to name a list of favorites for fear of leaving someone out. But be that as it may, I would say htat the following is a subset of those who I buy from regularly and respect for the high quality of their wines: Selbach-Oster, Donnhoff, Leitz, Gunderloch, Vollenweider, Rheinhold Haart, J. J. Prum, Fritz Haag, Schloss Lieser (now revitalized under one of the Haag sons), Wittmann, Muller-Catoir (skip 2002 and 2003 in my opinion), Johannishof (Eser), Weil, Zilliken, Maximin Grunhaus and Willi Schaefer.

And I am not really badmouthing Loosen, just giving my perosnal opinion on the wines. Ernie Loosen puts out very good, reliable Rieslings, but they do not thrill me. He is a fantastic voice for German wine however.

I agree with you exactly on Ernie Loosen. Do you really rate Reinhold Haart? I came within a whisker of ordering a case of his wine, then I tasted a few at the VDP tasting, and wasn't all that impressed. I'd very much agree with you about Daniel Vollenweider, despite the fact the his village (Wolf) is not exactly famous, yet I was very impressed with his spatlese and auslese recently, though less so with his BA.
Here's that quote I mentioned:
"When this book was first written, the Rheinpflaz produced a total of 50 million litres annually, and it's author described the bulk of it as Schoppenwein, the ordinary wine of the local bar, with an almost indescribable, heavy, earthy flavour orBodengeschmack . He continued 'it is not very agreeable to an educated palate, just as a cheap cigar is not very agreeable to a lover of fine Havana tobacco.' By 1977 the production had climbed to 200 million litres, and I doubt if much of it had anyBodengeschmack .
The smaller farmers joined some of the most advanced cooperatives in the world, equipped with modern presses, centrifugal separators and trained oenologists guaranteeing the cleanest, most scientifically fermented grape juice.
...next to their fine old cellars with the wooden casks in which the Rieslings still spend their infant months, they now display stainless steel tanks and those little Westphalia separators that cost many times more than the Mercedes or BMW's parked outside the manor-houses."
This quote comes from Peter Sichel's 1983 2nd revision of Frank Schoonmaker's 1956 classic book 'The Wines Of Germany'. Although it's been out of print for many years, it's still available second-hand, and I'm now on my third copy!
Of course this isn't proof that there really has been a decline in flavour, but I consider it highly indicative that something strange really is going on. There seem to be so many estates struggling to live up to their reputation, and I'm pretty much convinced this is indeed the answer. For many years I half-wondered if my tastebuds were simply fading, in much the same way that my eyesight is, but every so often I come across a wine that tastes exactly as I remember wines from the 70's. And then I tasted Zilliken's 05's and for me all doubt was over. Here, to my satisfaction at least, was proof that there was nothing wrong with my tastebuds. Of course, what I really want is for some winemakers to see this discussion, start thinking, and get back to the kind of wines I love.