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Mr. Eiswein
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:34
 | | 08/23/2006 2:56 PM |
| | This is part of what worries me: I'm sure the 'terroir' hasn't suddenly become far less good, and there hasn't been a terrible problem with the weather at just the 'top' estates, so.... The funny thing about Daniel Vollenweider is that as I said, his vineyard isn't famous, and yet he makes great wine there. So it seems to me to be self-evident that others are failing, and I'm sure it's not through lack of effort. Toomuch effort, I suspect. I'm now pretty certain that you're tasting exactly the same things that I am, just that I'm expressing it in a rather different way. Although I still get great pleasure from many wines, I have to say that there are now quite a few estates in the Rheingau producing what can only be described as Mosel wines, and that seems ridiculous, even if some of them are very good indeed. One other thing: 30 years ago the wines of the Ruwer were always said to be the lightest fine white wines in the world, yet now many middle-Mosel wines are lighter still. In fact I was quite impressed by the Karthauserhof wines, which had more concentrated flavours than quite a few of the Mosel wines at the VDP tasting. In fact I've emailed Mr. Zilliken to see if he'll make any comments, but I haven't had a reply so far. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 08/25/2006 4:38 PM |
| Quote:
I'm now pretty certain that you're tasting exactly the same things that I am, just that I'm expressing it in a rather different way.
I think that's mostly true. But there is another factor at play, and that is that I began my Riesling education near the 1990 vintage, not the 1971 vintage. So I have never expected much of anything from the Rheingau, with the exception fo a few estates (e.g. Weil, Leitz, Kunstler, Breuer). I never put any stock in the wines of Thanisch, Wegeler, Schonborn, etc. because they had already fallen from grace. | | | |
| Mr. Eiswein
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:34
| | 08/25/2006 5:44 PM |
| | Wow, that's just so sad. Thanisch's wines were truly stunning in the 70's while Deinhard's were often firm to the point of needing several decades to mature. Scloss Johannisberg and Vollrads were on the way down by the early 80's, but many other estates in the Rheingau including Schloss Schonborn and the Staatweinguter were still making fine, big Rheingau wines, quite firm with lots of body. Some of the Staatweinguter wines are still terrific, but one at least reminds me very much of the Mosel wines of the 70's. So, what is going on? I'm sure there's a common cause, and it seems to be very widespread. I'm convinced the overuse of high-tech equipment is to blame somewhere, but obviously I can't say exactly what. I wish I could. The thing that bugs me more than anything is that I KNOW what the great wines of Bernkastel, and parts of the Rheingau should be like, and when I can't even identify a wine as being a Bernkasteler blind, then that really makes me sad. As I said, for several years I drank eiswein almost exclusively to get around this, but now I've discovered I can import wine directly from Germany almost without limit I've bought 18 cases so far this year alone.... Most of it is very good, in fact, but one or two cases ahve been a big disappointment. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 08/25/2006 10:51 PM |
| Quote:
So, what is going on? I'm sure there's a common cause, and it seems to be very widespread.
Very high yields, poor vine husbandry and then manipulative cellar work to try to fix things.
I was in Piesport during late September a couple of years ago and had the chance to go in the Goldtropfchen vineyard with a winemaker friend. We took a grape from his plot of vines and checked the oeschle: 92. We tasted one: ripe, sweet but also vibrant. Delicious. We then took a grape from a neighboring vine (literally about three vines away) and checked the oeschle: 64. We tasted one: soggy pineapple juice. Awful. The neighboring vine belonged to a very famous estate.
Those that care for the vines and obtain proper yields make great wine. Those that do not have to chaptalize to make bad QbA, and stand no chance of making a decent pradikatswein.
Oh, and the neighboring vines...nearly all of them had already been harvested. Many estates are scared to death of waiting for mature grapes. Back when the weather used to be colder estates had to wait to get enough official ripeness to make spatlese, auslese, etc. So the grapes had more hand time to develop better flavors. Now they can get auslese oeschle readings in early September (e.g. 2003) and they pick physically unripe fruit. Why risk rain when you can pick Bernksteler Doctor or Erbacher Marcobrunn Auslese in early September.
The big answer you are looking for is greed. | | | |
| GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 08/27/2006 8:13 PM |
| | It is sad to see what happened to the wineries and vineyards that I loved in the 70's and shocked to see how much the wines have fallen when you buy their wines of the 00's, but when I look at the CA cabs that were great in the 70's, I see the same thing. It is great that there are knowledgeable people like you two that debate the finer points so that we can focus on the better wines of today. | | | |
| jason
Napa Valley
Wine Addict
Posts:6870
| | 08/27/2006 10:17 PM |
| | Not that Ihave anything to add but it has been interesting reading the two points of view and reference. | | | |
| Mr. Eiswein
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:34
| | 08/31/2006 6:48 PM |
| Quote:
Many estates are scared to death of waiting for mature grapes. Back when the weather used to be colder estates had to wait to get enough official ripeness to make spatlese, auslese, etc. So the grapes had more hand time to develop better flavors. Now they can get auslese oeschle readings in early September (e.g. 2003) and they pick physically unripe fruit. Why risk rain when you can pick Bernksteler Doctor or Erbacher Marcobrunn Auslese in early September.
The big answer you are looking for is greed.
I hate to say it, but I think you may be right. One of my favourite winemakers in Zeltingen always seems to produce riper, richer wines than the rest - and he's very old-fashioned. I've just had a case of his 2005's, and one of them is available in America, so I'll put a TN here. His *spatlese is equal to many auslese, his ** spatlese to many GKA, and his ***auslese is really a BA. As for his BA and TBA..... | | | |
| GATC
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2420
| | 09/01/2006 12:57 AM |
| | Looking forward to it. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 09/02/2006 7:50 PM |
| | Zeltingen is my overall favorite village in the Mosel. Between the Sonnenuhr, Schlossberg and Himmelreich I could be happy just drinking wines from that little town. Have you had anything from Markus Molitor? His wines are delicious. I have only recently gotten access to them, but I am hooked. | | | |
| Mr. Eiswein
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:34
| | 09/05/2006 5:30 PM |
| Quote:
Zeltingen is my overall favorite village in the Mosel. Between the Sonnenuhr, Schlossberg and Himmelreich I could be happy just drinking wines from that little town. Have you had anything from Markus Molitor? His wines are delicious. I have only recently gotten access to them, but I am hooked.
I like the wines of Zeltingen a lot. When I first started visiting the Mosel it was the first village I stayed in, and I went back last year. I've certainly heard of Markus Molitor, his wines fetch amazing prices at auction, but it seems that these are largely a few 'specials' in very limited quantity. His 'ordinary' wines are sold at very average prices in Germany, though I'm determined to buy a few of his wines when I 'educate' some German friends of mine about the Mosel and it's wines next year. It never ceases to amaze me that most Germans drink French or Italian wine.... | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 09/06/2006 1:35 PM |
| Quote:
I've certainly heard of Markus Molitor, his wines fetch amazing prices at auction, but it seems that these are largely a few 'specials' in very limited quantity.
That's what the auctions are all about. | | | |
| Mr. Eiswein
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:34
| | 09/06/2006 6:53 PM |
| | Kind of. Alfred Gessinger (of weingut Albert Gessinger) seems to have different ideas. He announces the price before the auction, and even if the auction price goes way higher, he still sells the same wine to his customers at the lower price. Seems a bit bizarre, and hardly likely to boost his profits, but I genuinely believe he wants to give his customers the best wine he can at the best price. Very strange by modern standards, but I'm not complaining. I only wish I'd tasted his 2004 auction wine before the auction, as I'd have bought every bottle on offer, it was that good. I have a half of his 2005 auction wine to be sold in the next week or two, but since I'm not that much of a fan of monster botrytis wines I wouldn't want the 5 cases he usually sells. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 09/06/2006 11:25 PM |
| Quote:
Kind of. Alfred Gessinger (of weingut Albert Gessinger) seems to have different ideas. He announces the price before the auction, and even if the auction price goes way higher, he still sells the same wine to his customers at the lower price. Seems a bit bizarre, and hardly likely to boost his profits, but I genuinely believe he wants to give his customers the best wine he can at the best price. Very strange by modern standards, but I'm not complaining. I only wish I'd tasted his 2004 auction wine before the auction, as I'd have bought every bottle on offer, it was that good. I have a half of his 2005 auction wine to be sold in the next week or two, but since I'm not that much of a fan of monster botrytis wines I wouldn't want the 5 cases he usually sells.
That is odd. Now at the estates I visited they held back some bottles, and you could buy them for the auction hammer price, but the price wasn't pre-set. That's not an auction.
And as for botrytis bombs...I'm not a fan either. | | | |
| Mr. Eiswein
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:34
| | 09/11/2006 5:43 PM |
| I had a reply to my email to Mr. Zilliken about the concentration in his 2005's. He didn't give much away, but here it is, unedited:
First, thank you very much for your interest in our wines.
Concerning your question about the flavour in our wines:
a) our wines from the Saarburger Rausch are grown on a very soft Devonian slate together with a mixture of diabas. Both will offer a lot of minerals in its weathered form to the vine.
b) the vintage 2005 is something very special and unique in the history of our estate. There is no vintage we can compare with. Botrytis and shrivelled grapes offered us an extreme concentration. Beside the extract and the must-weight, also the acid was rising up by this shrivelling process.
So we could find always the right balance between minerality and acidity and fruit on the other side.
c) all our wines are fermented and matured in old german oak-barrels (which are not toasted) in a very humid and cold cellar. The contact time takes about 6 months. This technique helps to round the wine, especially the acidity.
All our fruity wines are made for long aging. So you can enjoy an Auslese,for example, several decades. Besides, you can have a lot of fun with them, now.
We have very good contacts in the UK, all are doing a good job.
For example:
Lay and Wheeler, Essex,
Justerini and Brooks,
Howard Ripley
Wine Society
All of them are offering a range of our 2005 vintage.
We are very satisfied by working with those companies, so we are not
interested in dealing directly to private customers.
I hope my answer is helpful to understand our wines.
Best regards,
Hanno Zilliken
He's right about the acidity, I don't usually drink BA or TBA wines as I find them too unbalanced, yet his 2005's right up to TBA had such good acidity I could drink them easily. Not only that, but it seemed 100% natural, unlike some other wines I've had lately... I was convinced one bottle from the Vereinigte Hospitien was faulty; a few months later I opened another one and realised it was simply artificial acidity. It was very nice, but reminded me of 7-UP, and had no taste of Piesporter Goldtropfchen whatsoever.... | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 09/26/2006 4:25 PM |
| Quote:
I was convinced one bottle from the Vereinigte Hospitien was faulty; a few months later I opened another one and realised it was simply artificial acidity. It was very nice, but reminded me of 7-UP, and had no taste of Piesporter Goldtropfchen whatsoever....
Very interesting reply from Zilliken.
About the Hospitien Pies Gold, they are in no way a high level producer. I find that good wines from them are like the blind squirrel finding a nut. It happens occasionally by luck or chance.
Most of what Hano Zilliken said is common among the top tier producers. Certainly his soil and weather conditions in 2005 were just right, but that happens in different spots every year. The Nahe was rather favored in 2003 and 2004. The Middle Mosel got its due in 2001. | | | |
| Mr. Eiswein
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:34
| | 09/26/2006 6:17 PM |
| Quote:
Certainly his soil and weather conditions in 2005 were just right, but that happens in different spots every year. The Nahe was rather favored in 2003 and 2004. The Middle Mosel got its due in 2001.
I must admit I used to really like Ver. Hosp. wines, and was delighted when I found they'd supply me direct. They were much richer than most (still are), but nowadays they seem to have lower, softer acidity in general, which since I like wines with highish acidity doesn't suit me. I guess that's in part due to global warming, which most world-famous wine regions seem to be experiencing. However I'm also really not keen on artificial acidity, at least not if it's as obviously artificial as two V.H. wines I've tasted. You're dead right about some regions getting great conditions some years: I bought about 10 cases of Zeltinger Sonnenuhr 2004. I also really like some Ruwer 2001's. In fact I think that as global warming takes hold, choosing which regions - and even which villages - to buy in which years will become more important than ever. I don't think I'm alone in predicting that the Saar will have many more great vintages in future, or that parts of the middle-Mosel will often produce wines lacking in acidity. I like some of the Zeltingen 2005's I've tasted so far, but they're not really the style I prefer. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 09/26/2006 11:55 PM |
| 2004 was a great year if you like acid. I do as well, and I bought a bunch of '04s. The Selbach-Oster Zeltinger Himmelreich Riesling Kabinett Halbtrocken is a fantastic dinner wine at a bargain price. You cannot go wrong there.
I'm glad I am not the only fan of the Ruwer in '01. I like the wines a lot. Most critics thought they did not do that well there, favoring the Middle Mosel. I liked both.
And as for lower acidity, I don't think it's just global warming. After '96 the tolerance for acidity seemed to go down. Vintners just don't like to pick high acid wines. And who can blame them, most wine drinkers don't like them. We do, but we area distinct minority. | | | |
| Mr. Eiswein
Grape Truck Driver
Posts:34
| | 10/03/2006 7:19 PM |
| Quote:
2004 was a great year if you like acid. I do as well, and I bought a bunch of '04s. The Selbach-Oster Zeltinger Himmelreich Riesling Kabinett Halbtrocken
Do you really like Halbtrocken wines??? I can't stand anything other than traditional sweet German wines. I doubt if I've ever drank more than one case of any other wines in my life, in fact. It's the fruitiness, and highish acidity I love. I'm a big fan of Cox's apples and exotic fruit such as pineapples, mango, etc, and this is the closest I can get to them in wine. Cox's apples have a really special acidity, but I don't know if you can get them in America.
But yes, I'm definitely an acid lover, and not really much of a botrytis fan. I had an Eitelsbacher Marienholz 2001 GKA from The Bischofliches Weinguter that had a simply magical balance between the luscious sweetness and the fresh and fruity acidity, in fact I must order some more of it before they sell out. It wasn't the sweetest GKA I've ever had, or the most acidic, or even the fruitiest, but it had just about the best combination you could wish for. It wasn't expensive either, at around €25, which is pretty average for a good GKA. For me the balance of a wine is very important indeed, and it seems to me that global warming is likely to mean we have to look a bit harder for that kind of thing in future. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 10/03/2006 10:02 PM |
| Quote:
Do you really like Halbtrocken wines???
Yes, they are some of my favorite all-purpose table wines. They have several things going for them. Frequently they are quite inexpensive. The lower sugar means they pair well with "traditional" preparations, and they still have low-ish alcohol, so I can have as much as I want!
I love the sweeter style wines, and likely drink 3-4 times more of them than dry/half-dry styles, but for me a good halbtrocken is an indispesible part of the cellar. | | | |
| ChangeMe
Grape Puncher
Posts:986
| | 10/03/2006 10:02 PM |
| | Oh yeah, they also age remarkably well. | | | |
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