ChangeMe 
Barrel Filler
Posts: 1371
 | | 01-20-2005 08:08 PM |
| Pulled this from another site:
"To add impetus to the creation of more IGTs (local governments or producers must request IGT just as they do for DOC and DOCG), the updated laws now stipulate that the VDT designation may not carry a varietal name or even a vintage date." | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts: 8568
| | 01-20-2005 08:18 PM |
| Thanks very much Jcocktosten. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts: 1371
| | 01-20-2005 08:30 PM |
| My pleasure Jones. It is a very weird quirk in the laws that no one mentioned to us regarding the IGT VdT distinction when we were in Italy recently. Not being allowed to list the vintage does not make much sense to me, so it piqued my interest, and it is not a very inspired day at work. | | | |
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JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5211
| | 01-20-2005 08:38 PM |
| Rather than lift it verbatim, here is a link that I found that references the 1992 law that changed things. Italian Wine Laws However, is it possible that wines bottled for U.S. export don't have to abide by this? I know that I have seen VdT's with vintages well into 2000. At least, I think I have. | | | Beta testing a new signature. | |
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ChangeMe
Barrel Filler
Posts: 1371
| | 01-20-2005 08:52 PM |
| I lifted verbatim from that exact link, mea culpa. | | | |
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Dick W.
Barrel Filler
Posts: 1081
| | 01-20-2005 08:53 PM |
| i was just looking at a few TN's on ebob. specifically two, the 1995 ornellaia and the 1997 solaia are both listed by vintage, but both also as VdT in the title of the TN. also, i bought a 97 solaia in italy, obviously it was labeled as a 1997. possibly solaia and orny aren't VdT and parker lists them this way, or the law isn't really followed that stringently. | | | |
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JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5211
| | 01-20-2005 09:17 PM |
| OK. I think this clears it up. epicurious Not all VdT's are created equal. Higher quality ones can display vintages. So, all IGT's are VdT's, but not all VdT's are IGT's. The former display vintages, and the latter do not. I'm pretty sure that Le Volte says "Red Table Wine" on the label. And I know that it displays the vintage. | | | Beta testing a new signature. | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts: 3214
| | 01-21-2005 01:34 AM |
| Le Volte is an IGT, not a VdT.
In short - VdT = no vintage designation. IGT = vintage designation. | | | |
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JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5211
| | 01-24-2005 06:52 PM |
| According to the link above: Quote:
Within the VdT category is a new premium category-vino da tavola con indicazione geografica. An area granted this higher designation may label their wines with the vintage, place of origin, and grape variety, whereas regular vini da tavola may list only the country on the label.
So thereare VdT's that list vintage. Le volte is one of these "premium" VdT's that is also an IGT. | | | Beta testing a new signature. | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts: 3214
| | 01-25-2005 01:04 AM |
| I would disregard that link. VdT - no vintage. IGT - vintage. | | | |
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JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5211
| | 01-25-2005 03:35 AM |
| I would too, except for one thing...Le Volte has both a vintage date, and the words "Red Table Wine" on the label. Seems to lend support for what is stated in epicurious. | | | Beta testing a new signature. | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts: 3214
| | 01-25-2005 02:48 PM |
| Look at Ornellaia's website. It clearly states the wine is an IGT. | | | |
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JimmyV
Central Connecticut
Wine Connoisseur
Posts: 5211
| | 01-25-2005 03:07 PM |
| We're going in circles here. Being an IGT does notpreclude it fromalso being a VdT (according toepicurious ). Marketing strategy would dictate that if you produced a wine that was both an IGT and a VdT, you would trumpet the former, and de-emphasize the latter, hence the information on the website. It remains irrefutable that the bottle contains both a vintage date, and the words "Red Table Wine." If you choose to focus only on the date, then by all means, call it an IGT. If you choose to focus only on the words "Red Table Wine", then call it a VdT. Or you could categorize it asepicurious does, and say that the wine belongs to a new breed of wines that are both. Just goes to show that the Italian wine laws are no clearer today then they were 20 year ago. | | | Beta testing a new signature. | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts: 3214
| | 01-25-2005 07:07 PM |
| It's a tiered system. From highest to lowest, it's as follows: DOCG DOC IGT VdT Take a look at this info on Banfi's website: LINK | | | |
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futronic
Toronto, Canada
Wine Bottler
Posts: 3214
| | 01-25-2005 07:10 PM |
| Quote:
Rather than lift it verbatim, here is a link that I found that references the 1992 law that changed things.Italian Wine Laws
However, is it possible that wines bottled for U.S. export don't have to abide by this? I know that I have seen VdT's with vintages well into 2000. At least, I think I have.
And quoting your initial post on this, it also clearly states there that VdT cannot have a vintage on it.
Doesn't matter where the wine will end up. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts: 8568
| | 01-25-2005 10:34 PM |
| Based on my read, JimmyV has it right. The IGT is a subset of VdT so the statement that IGT equals vintage is correct as far as it goes however since VdT includes IGTs then the statement that VdT does not equal vintage is technically wrong. | | | |
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Marcel
Grape Puncher
Posts: 875
| | 01-26-2005 08:39 PM |
| I had to do some research to find out how this really works, and I think Jones and Jimmy are correct. To understand the Italian categories, one has to understand how the European Community regulation works. They have two categories:
- QWPSR: Quality Wine Produced in a Specific Region
- Table wine
In France, AOC (Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée) and VQDS (Vins Délimités de Qualité Supérieure) represent QWPSR, while Vin de Pays and Vins de Table represent Table wine.
Now, in Italy, DOCG (Denominazione di Origine Controllata e Garantita) and DOC (Denominazione di Origine Controllata) represent QWPSR, while IGT (Indicazione Geografica Tipica) and Vini da Tavola represent Table wine.
Intead of looking for sites that try to explain the Italian designations, one should read the Italian law (no. 164 - 2.10.1992)
Quote:
Art 3 -
[...]
3. Le DOCG e le DOC sono le menzioni specifiche tradizionali utilizzate dall'Italia per designare i V.Q.P.R.D. (vini di qualità prodotti in regioni determinate). I vini possono altresì utilizzare le denominazioni seguenti: VSQPRD (vini spumanti di qualità prodotti in regioni determinate); VLQPRD (vini liquorosi di qualità prodotti in regioni determinate), VFQPRD (vini frizzanti di qualità prodotti in regioni determinate). Le definizioni CEE sono aggiuntive e non sostitutive delle menzioni italiane.
4. La menzione IGT può essere sostituita dalla menzione "Vin de pays" per i vini prodotti in Val d'Aosta di bilinguismo francese e dalla menzione "Landweine" per i vini prodotti in provincia di Bolzano di bilinguismo tedesco.
I won't translate everything, but paragraph 3 states DOCG and DOC are the Italian equivalent for VQPRD (Italian for QWPSR) and that the European Community definitions add to, rather than substitute for, the Italian designations. Paragraph 4 states that instead of IGT, Val d'Aosta (where French is also spoken) can use the term "Vin de pays", while Bolzano (where German is also spoken) can use the term Landweine.
Italian wine law (in Italian  )
European Community wine designations (and French equivalent) (in English  )
Italian Encyclopedia definition of the DOC/IGT system (in Italian )
BTW, an Italian decree from 11.27.1999 call IGT "vini da tavola ad indicazione geografica tipica" (link) | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts: 8568
| | 01-26-2005 09:35 PM |
| Great research. Thanks very much Mars! | | | |
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Winetex
Austin, Texas
Master of Wine
Posts: 11230
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| 01-26-2005 10:33 PM |
| Way to go Mars. I have to say that although informative, this thread officially makes my head hurt. You guys have some research stamina. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts: 11169
| | 01-26-2005 11:08 PM |
| Way, way more information than I expected when I started this. | | | |
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