Brian Loring
Grape Sorter
Posts:386
 | | 02/16/2005 6:58 PM |
| In the latest Oeno-file, Dan says of the 2003 AP Vin Garys' Pinot Noir... "closed with a fake cork".
Dan... not a fan of synthetic corks? What abouot screw caps? | | | |
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skwid
Wine Connoisseur
Posts:5452
| | 02/16/2005 7:09 PM |
| | Dan and I were actually talking about this subject when I saw him this weekend. I'll let Dan give his views on wine closures. I do have a question though, have you had problems with the fake corks sticking and not being able to be removed from the bottle? I've heard of this happening because if some sugar gets on the cork as it is inserted this can act as a glue. SInce the plastic does not absorb things this could create nice surface for adhesion. Am I crazy (don't answer that) or is this a real problem? | | | |
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Brian Loring
Grape Sorter
Posts:386
| | 02/16/2005 7:16 PM |
| Quote:
... have you had problems with the fake corks sticking and not being able to be removed from the bottle?
Previous generations of synthetic corks have had issues with sticking. The Neocorks that Andrew and I are using are designed to avoid sticking. | | | |
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stemor
Collierville, TN
Wine Thief
Posts:2818
| | 02/16/2005 7:23 PM |
| I was wondering how long it was going to take for that comment to get called out.
Since we have no official "Thanks, Dan!" thread, I'll do it here: Thanks, Dan!. Thanks for 36 pages of reviews and raves. Frankly, I always read it cover to cover to find the raves, and this (the fake cork comment) was one of the few that I found in this issue.
Could you try to plant a few more rants and/or raves in the next issue? I love those Bailey-isms! | |
Cheers, y'all | |
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DJ Hombre
Napa Valley, California
Barrel Filler
Posts:1366
| | 02/16/2005 7:27 PM |
| | What most piqued my interest with Dan's comments re: fake corks. Was that I got the impression that the neocork equates early drinking. Now we all know Brian Lorings stance on his wines, ie, drink 'em up now. And I'm pretty sure AP Vin thinks the same of his. What I'm most curious about is if neocorks hinder a wines aging potential... or is this question unanswerable due to it being so new in technology? | | | |
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Matt Letson
Barrel Filler
Posts:1339
| | 02/16/2005 7:33 PM |
| Quote:
Could you try to plant a few more rants and/or raves in the next issue? I love those Bailey-isms!
I liked "suitable only for mimosas, the punchbowl or sorority exchanges." Nice. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/16/2005 8:13 PM |
| | Glad you liked that one Matt. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/16/2005 8:14 PM |
| | Thanks Steve. This issue was kind of tame - too many great wines and not enough stinkers. I got lazy with some bad wine tasting notes. Next issue I'll see if I can't get some more rants into it. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/16/2005 8:31 PM |
| I am a huge proponent of screw caps and I would buy all wines for my cellar with screwcaps (even first growth Bordeaux) if I could. Admittedly there are some concerns re screwcaps but my view of the risk/reward comparision between screwcaps and real corks is that screwcaps is the least risky closure available today. Certainly for virtually all dry white wines, roses, and short to moderately long lived reds they would be better off closed with a screwcap imo.
In the nineties I was a fan of fake corks (because screwcaps then were a commercial impossibility from a marketing perspective as well as a short term production perspective. For some zins I was involved in from the 98/99 vintages the wines were actually bottled with fake corks) however my experience with laying down wines with fake corks has been poor. In my experience, fake cork wines even after a few years have aged very poorly. I don't think my bad experiences with fake corks has been unusual.
Because it is now 2005 and screwcaps are becoming more and more accepted (especially by knowledgeable wine consumers), I believe that a producer of premium wines should either be closing their wines with real corks or screwcaps but not fake corks. Bottles that are closed with fake corks should be drunk quickly imo. An expensive wine closed with a fake cork gives me pause as a consumer. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 02/16/2005 8:52 PM |
| | The fake ones are rough on Rabbit type corkscrews. | | | |
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Andrew P. Vingiello
Grape Fermenter
Posts:418
| | 02/16/2005 8:54 PM |
| Quote:
An expensive wine closed with a fake cork gives me pause as a consumer.
That's kinda funny...in my mind it shows that the winemaker was actually trying to keep "corked" bottles away from the consumer. Good imo. A very good alternative to cork when one is still studying the circumstances surrounding screw cap...imo.
Andrew | | | |
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Wineaux
New Orleans, LA
Barrel Filler
Posts:1414
| | 02/16/2005 9:30 PM |
| Quote:
The fake ones are rough on Rabbit type corkscrews.
A fake cork was rough enough to break my first rabbit Screwpull - the metal actually cracked in two. | | | |
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love_cab_chard
Master of Wine
Posts:12497
| | 02/16/2005 9:54 PM |
| My $.02c: I don't like screw caps & I don't like fake ones.
Doesn't B&H also use fake ones? | | | |
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Brian Loring
Grape Sorter
Posts:386
| | 02/16/2005 10:02 PM |
| The real reason I asked was the term "fake". I don't see too many people refer to synthetic corks as fake. The word fake (to me) has a negative connotation to it, so I guess Jones' response was to be expected.
Does the fact that a wine is sealed with a "fake cork" affect ones perception of the wine inside? Just wondering... I think it's important to understand any reviewer biases when reading their write-ups. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 02/16/2005 10:04 PM |
| | I have no problem with the term "fake" cork. For me it is synonomous with "synthetic" cork. I applaud those who are making the effort to minimize cork taint. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/16/2005 10:54 PM |
| My response to your inquiry is not at all negative. My response embraces the use of alternative closures. It explains the history of my thoughts on the subject (including the prior use of fake corks). In 2005, I merely prefer a screwcap to a fake cork and think it is a poor decision on a winery's part to use synthetics on expensive wines that theoretically or potentially can or should be aged. If by differing with your commercial decision regarding closures (or using a word other than Loring approved "synthetic" or "neocork") I am being negative well then I guess I am guilty as charged.
Point scores are determined solely based on how the wine tastes not by its packaging nor its pedigree including how the bottle is closed. Your insinuation to the contrary is without any basis.
I have and will continue to champion wineries that do things right imo (for example using screwcaps or not charging excessive prices) as well as comment on wineries that do things wrong (for example use the wrong enclosure for the wrong kind of wine or overprice their wine). A reasonable person reading my reviews realizes that such comments while pertinent do not color in any manner the qualititative analysis of the wine. The use of fake corks however does effect my maturity estimate and that change in my analysis is expressly noted in the review. | | | |
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Brian Loring
Grape Sorter
Posts:386
| | 02/16/2005 11:26 PM |
| Quote:
A reasonable person reading my reviews realizes that such comments while pertinent do not color in any manner the qualititative analysis of the wine.
OK... then how about something like this:
"The latest issue of the Oneo-file is filled with an array of timely, interesting, and spot on reviews of some of the major wines being released this spring. It's a great resource for anyone hoping to fill their cellar with the best of the best. A great job done by the fake Robert Parker, Dan Bailey!".
There's a glowing review. But don't you somehow come away feeling like there might be something wrong? Like maybe something was inserted to make the rest of the statement feel like a backhanded compliment.
As an attorney, I think you'd appreciate the importance of the words used to communicate ideas. Your continued use of the word fake speaks volumes to me. | | | |
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JonesWineNo1
Sommelier
Posts:8568
| | 02/16/2005 11:56 PM |
| My legal training (plus lots of English classes) has impressed on me not only the importance of the words used to convey ideas but the importance of context and placement of the word or words used as well as their tone. While you drafted your example expressly in an attempt to prove a point in order to insult me, your example is not analagous to the review in question. The key difference being where the rather jocular term "fake" is placed and what it modifies.
Your example is written to say that I am a fake ("fake Robert Parker"). The APVin review reads differently. Here it is in its entirety:
"2003 A.P.Vin Pinot Noir. Garys' Vineyard, Santa Lucia Highlands, Monterey County, California. 14.9% alcohol. $44. 150 cases produced.
Raised in 50% new French oak and then bottled unfined and unfiltered, this deeply colored wine has pleasing aromas of plum, light oak, and vanilla. Amorphous (plum) syrupy fruit in the mouth with slightly elevated acidity and a bit of a burn on the finish. Closed with a fake cork - that means drink this wine now. One dimensional but attractive. 86 points."
"Fake" in the review only applies to "cork" not to the wine, the winemaker, or anything else (fake Pinot Noir or fake Brian Loring would have been the equivalent of your example). The review concentrates on the wine in question not on anything else. The use of this kind of cork does modify my maturity estimate and as stated previously that change to the estimated maturity date is specifically attributed to the use of a synthetic cork.
Its unfortunate that you continue to attack me for any perceived (emphasis perceived) slight of your operation or an operation you provide input to such as AP Vin. You are overreacting in the extreme to my review. | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 02/17/2005 12:03 AM |
| | Dan do you have enough experience with wines agee with fake corks to determine that wines with these closures don't age as well as wines closed with natural cork? I haven't had any prematurely aged wines sealed with fake corks, though my experience is admittedly limited. | | | |
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Budman
Master of Wine
Posts:11876
| | 02/17/2005 12:10 AM |
| | Board-O. Me too, but the ones I've had seemed to hold up. St. Francis Reserve cab comes to mind. The last 96 I had was super. I do admit the sample size is fairly small. | | | |
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