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Subject: Economy & wine pricing
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Randy WiggintonUser is Offline
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03/15/2008 11:32 PM  
I am preparing another load of wines for auction, and took a look at the values.  I'm not certain, but it seems to me that prices have come down since December, at least for California wines.  I have a very tiny amount of data, so I'm wondering if my perceptions are accurate in the view of others here, or if I am imagining things.
 
There has been much talk of the credit crunch and its affect on the real estate market, but as far as I know no one has discussed the affect of the credit squeeze on the luxury market.

Thoughts?  Are prices coming down, or am I just seeing shadows on the wall?
wineismylifeUser is Offline
Arlington, TX
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03/16/2008 10:42 AM  
Randy, there was a rather good thread on this issue over on Wino Depot if you'd like to seek it out. In short, I concur. It seems to me that just about all New World wines are down, Italian and Spanish are flat, Bordeaux and Rhone are hot.

Joe
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Wine is like potato chips around me...if it's open, it's gone.
VineUser is Offline
Milwaukee, WI
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03/16/2008 1:09 PM  
Agree with Joe. Bordeaux is hot, CA is not. They do show numbers to somewhat back this trend up in the latest issue of WS.

Quick side note, I didn't renew my subscription to WS this year but have since received 2 issues in 2007...ever happen to anyone else?
Bob BresslerUser is Offline
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03/16/2008 1:13 PM  
I agree with Joe about CA versus France, but for some reason, Aussie wines (not the export ones) seem to be up a bit.  However, I think that Randy's questions is more along the lines of 'are people paying less for luxury goods like wine' - yes?  If so, then the answer is no - not across the board.  It seems to be more about what is demand at the moment.
Bradley MolzenUser is Offline
Bayonne, NJ
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03/16/2008 1:28 PM  
I would think the dollar would have a lot to do with imported wines being quite pricey.
 
Or are we talking about wines at auction that were purchased before the dollar tanked?
 
It also doesn't make sense that California wines are cheaper....  if they are cheaper to those outside this country, you'd think they'd be purchasing more, making supply here smaller, and thus demand and prices higher. 
 
Doesn't seem like we export very much... the greedy american wine drinkers that we are. 

If you drink wine, you get smarter....
Joseph BembryUser is Offline
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03/18/2008 9:15 PM  
It's not so much greedy American wine drinkers, Brad, as most Europeans don't drink much wine from outside Europe. There isn't really any demand for American wines in Europe. Actually, when you go to Europe, you rarely see wines outside of the particular region you are in. Tuscan wines are rarely seen in Piedmont, hard to find a Bordeaux on a wine list in Beaune and the Catalan have no wines from Rioja whatsoever. Very territorial stuff.

jb
Randy WiggintonUser is Offline
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03/19/2008 10:32 AM  
However, there is quite a demand for california wines in Asia. I think the consensus here is correct; France is hot, california is not.
Joseph BembryUser is Offline
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03/19/2008 12:49 PM  
True indeed, Randy. But since Asia produces very little wine, they demand high quality stuff from everywhere. I had a Burgundian producer tell me that he was offered triple the price for his Grand Cru than what he sells it for normally. He didn't take the deal, but there are some mighty deep pockets in the Far East.

jb
michaeldennis83User is Offline
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03/28/2008 8:27 PM  
Lower wine prices = makes me happy haha. Anyone think they'll go up soon?
 
-Michael
My favorite squidoo lens about Celebrity Foods

Seamus CampbellUser is Offline
Portland, Oregon
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03/28/2008 8:54 PM  
Posted By michaeldennis83 on 03/28/2008 8:27 PM
Lower wine prices = makes me happy haha. Anyone think they'll go up soon?
 
-Michael
My favorite squidoo lens about Celebrity Foods


Spam?  I can't tell.
WinetexUser is Offline
Austin, Texas
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03/29/2008 10:23 AM  
Spam aside there has been some noticeable softening in wine prices in the US. Not in the first growths or "blue chips" quite yet but as WIML notes New World sales (and Spain) are flat. There is more than a bit of 2005 Burgundy sitting in the market right now again minus the "blue chips" that were sold right out of the gate. My guess is that inventories at many retailers are starting to run to the high side. I only have some anecdotal evidence on this.
ChillyWinoUser is Offline
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03/29/2008 11:07 AM  
Posted By Winetex on 03/29/2008 10:23 AM
Spam aside there has been some noticeable softening in wine prices in the US. Not in the first growths or "blue chips" quite yet but as WIML notes New World sales (and Spain) are flat. There is more than a bit of 2005 Burgundy sitting in the market right now again minus the "blue chips" that were sold right out of the gate. My guess is that inventories at many retailers are starting to run to the high side. I only have some anecdotal evidence on this.
Things are definitely softening.  I sold some wine yesterday and they mentioned that their inventories were rising and prices were falling.  He also mentioned wines that normally sold out upon arrival were sitting around longer.  Now that the housing bubble is bursting, there is a lot less extra money floating around.

Bob BresslerUser is Offline
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03/29/2008 2:12 PM  
I have some stuff on winebid now and there is not much activity.
rickym13User is Offline
los angeles
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03/31/2008 12:37 PM  
Posted By Bob Bressler on 03/29/2008 2:12 PM
I have some stuff on winebid now and there is not much activity.

same here...stuff like harlan and sloan.  they are off vintage but...

SaratogawineUser is Offline
Saratoga Springs, NY
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04/04/2008 6:28 PM  
As a retailer I can tell you what is going on with us so far this year.  Sales are up both brick and mortar and online - culty collectible wines seem to be doing quite well - prices have to be very competitive to sell the super premiums like DRC and back vintage first growths.
 
Weak dollar means  we are getting a lot of overseas buyers - so that is helping
 
So far we have seen some great growth this year and haven't been hit with the economic turn down yet.
 
I have seen prices start to come down at auctions and especially to private collectors who are thinning out cellars to make up for losses elsewhere.
Ladera DanUser is Offline
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04/07/2008 7:25 PM  
I have seen interesting things in the market this year. It does seem that wine sales are softening a bit and that some areas are getting hit harder than others. Particularly the high growth markets that over saturated the market with too much housing. Other markets seem to be pretty solid and not slipping at all. I have seen tremendous price increases in import wines. In particular French and Italian wines. Spain still seems to be holding as well as our friends in the southern hemisphere. Restaurants seem to be hurting the most and is where I have heard the most worries. Most retailers if they have a solid customer base seem to be steady. French is hot right now I believe because of 05 and they have been getting a lot of press. Though like I said they have taken huge increase in prices across the board and I feel that the long term effect of that will help the California wine market. Most Cali houses are holding prices, though I have seen some increases. I feel the people that are really getting beat up right now are the mid range wines. Luckily even in hard economic times people still want to drink wine
WinetexUser is Offline
Austin, Texas
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04/17/2008 10:56 AM  
I'm starting to see some softness in Italian wines. The blue chips are staying high but below that there is some movement even with the price increases due to the Euro.
sautUser is Offline
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04/18/2008 1:31 AM  
It is strange. The whole premise of Mr. Bush's worthless dollar policy is that a cheap dollar will make our exports more attractive overseas. What he doesn't realize is that we just raise our prices to match the imports because "ours is just as good as theirs" so why should we be cheaper? I've seen 10-15% increases year over year for some pinot producers, and I doubt that would be happening if premier cru burgundy were still $50. $200 Insignia, anyone?

Joking aside, this has hit me hard. I have seen my buying power erode by at least 10% year over year. Aubert, Kosta Browne, even Drinkward Peschon has joined the fray. Sure, a $5 increase is not that much, but it is more than a 10% increase if your cab used to be $45. (Honestly, though, they are still a value)

Now the 2007 Bordeaux are opening...and we will see. A crappy vintage by all accounts, and prices are the same as last year. I see 1972 all over again. The wild card is Asia. Will they throw their multitude of dollars at off vintage 2nd growths? I will wait and see...
BudmanUser is Offline
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04/18/2008 7:23 AM  
I dropped Aubert with their latest increasse. If KB keeps hiking their prices, they'll be next.
... and I'll be dropping Kistler next year for the same reason.
DaveUser is Offline
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04/18/2008 10:07 PM  
I have yet to actually sell any wine (other than at cost from my mailers) so take this with a grain of salt, but I have followed this subject fairly closely.  There are some CA wines that you can sell and be certain that you will at least get your money back.  Even though I think that the secondary prices for KB are about to plummet, even if they do, you won't lose money.  Alban, Aubert, Rivers-Marie, Schrader, Scarecrow, Araujo are other examples of wine that you can readily sell if need be (may not make a killing, but you won't lose money; Araujo is a little dicier). 
 
Other perfectly good (even great) wines have no secondary market safety net.  Someone mentioned that you might as well take a bath with your Pax wines if you decide that you don't like them.  I think that Radio Coteau, Peay, Bressler, Copain, Neal, Anomaly, and Realm fall into the same category.  Someone may buy the wine, but you'll be well behind after the fees.
 
 
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