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ChangeMe
 Grape Picker Posts:23

 | | 01/18/2007 9:40 PM |
| Hello All,
Complete wet behind the ear, green, newb posting. Please be patient, as in the next 70 years or so, I'll be your next Robert Parker.
So I've read the basics on decanting, and see the main puroposes as two-fold.
#1) Separating sediment from consumable liquid. #2) Aeration of "younger" wines.
So, my question is as follows:
#1) Does one decant any and all wines (red and white)? My guess is the answer is no. Hence, how does one know (prior) to opening a botte if it should/needs to be decanted? I guess you could hold it up to the light and see if there are any particles floating around. Is this the correct technique? And for "younger" wines decant anything that you just bought?
#2) Following #1, is there somepoint where you wont have to decant, perhaps a "sweet spot" that is no longer considered "young", and has not developed "particles" to decant?
#3) If I want to decant a young red for strictly aeration purposes, do I throw the unopened bottle in the refrigerator for a few hours until it is of the temperature of sparking wine, then open and decant, and let it "warm" up to the "nominal" drinking temperature of 55-60F? Or, do I decant it in a temperature controlled environment at a steady 55-60F for 2 hours or however long as necessary?
#4) How does one determine the correct amount of decanting time? Consider a young wine. It seems some postings suggest anywhere from 1-4 hours. How does one "know" it is "ready" to be drunk? Similar for a wine that needed to be separated from sediment? 1-4 hours or longer?
Thanks Your future (much distant) Robert Parker | | | |
| JimmyV Central Connecticut
 Wine Connoisseur Posts:5015


 | | 01/18/2007 10:16 PM |
| As to #1 and #2:
To save myself from the torture of trying to decide when it is "right" or "best" to decant, I simply decant every single wine that I serve at home. Decanting may not help certian wines, but it has never been known to hurt them either. Worst case scenario is that you have gained nothing. But I really like the way the decanter looks on the table, so I no matter what, I gain some "elegance".
I can't help you with respect to #3. We keep our house on the chilly side, so there is no such thing as "warming up the wine" when left at room temperature. In the summer months when the house is hottest, I pull reds from my cooling unit where they are around 56 degrees, and decant them. The wine then sits in the basement where the temperature is rarely above 68 and the wine will never get too warm to serve. If the wine needs to be decanted, but not aired for a long time, (in other words, decanted and immediately served), I pull it from my cooling unit a day or so before and stand it in the basement or in the dining room (whichever is closest to 65 degrees depending on the season), and take it from there.
As for #4...practice, practice, practice. Decant and taste. Taste every half hour or so and see what is happening. I err on the side of too little time in the decanter because the wine will continue to sit on the table for an hour or more once service has started (unless you are pouring the entire bottle at once to a large group.) I hate when a wine falls apart from too much air. I'd rather try to catch the "sweet spot", if there is such a thing, mid-way through the bottle than at the very beginning. | | Beta testing a new signature. | |
| ChangeMe
 Grape Picker Posts:23

 | | 01/19/2007 1:15 AM |
| Jimmyv,
RE: your response to #4,
So, it is possible for a wine to "fall apart" if aerated "too much". Also you say "practtice, practice, practice".
It appears we have a chcken and an egg situation. Keep in mind my ears are green, and my tastes will "mature" in 70 years. How will I know that something has "fallen apart" while "practicing, practicing. and practicing" if I dont know what to look for.
Is there a smell that alerts you? Some taste like soda/pop losing its carbonation and going flat, getting bitter, some color change??
There must be some method to gauge when this point is reached, hence to initiate a technique of wine bonging similar to beer bonging, to enjoy whats left before it "falls apart" any further.
To others, please feel free to chime in or add your 2 cents to the original inquiries and or this discussion.
Thanks Your friendly neighborhood Robert Parker (in 70 years post date). | | | |
| JimmyV Central Connecticut
 Wine Connoisseur Posts:5015


 | | 01/19/2007 2:26 PM |
| | Taste is not all that different from sound. When a wine starts to fall apart, it is like having the volume turned down. There is simply less of everything. Muted tastes, less aroma. Quite simply, you will find yourself saying: "This doesn't taste as food now as it did 20 minutes ago." | | Beta testing a new signature. | |
| Rothko Palm Beach
 Wine Thief Posts:2849

 | | 01/19/2007 3:58 PM |
| Quote:
Quite simply, you will find yourself saying: "This doesn't taste as food now as it did 20 minutes ago."
You'll only say that if you drank a lot of wine 20 minutes ago. Otherwise, you'll say "This doesn't taste as good now as it did 20 minutes ago.:
Sorry. I just couldn't resist.  | | | |
| David Niederauer Los Gatos, CA
 Master Sommelier Posts:15708


 | | 01/20/2007 2:12 AM |
| There is no way to predict what the optimum decanting time is.
The "Amdelouz" method (see eBob) is to simply pop the cork and pour about one ounce into a glass. If it tastes great, put the cork back in until you want to drink it. If not, the one ounce pour has greatly increased the amount of surface for wine and air to interact inside the bottle. Let it sit in the bottle tasting it about every half hour or so. When it tastes like you want it to taste, put the cork back in.
For the paranoids out there: If you want to decant a wine for an extended period of time (like maybe a Port for 24 hours) find a decanter that doesn't have lead in it. Most decanters are made of leaded crystal and they are fine for wines that are in the decanter for two-three hours but too much longer one doesn't want the lead leaching into the wine. I won't affect the taste; it will just kill you. | | | |
| David Niederauer Los Gatos, CA
 Master Sommelier Posts:15708


 | | 01/20/2007 2:17 AM |
| This is a classic:
I was cleaning out my wife's grandpa's cellar and found 12 bottles of his home-bottled grape wine under the steps. My wife told me to empty the contents of each and every bottle down the sink, or else. I agreed to do the unpleasant task.
I withdrew the cork form the first bottle and poured the contents down the sink, with the exception of one glass, which I drank. I extracted the cork from the second bottle, did likewise, and drank one glass, just to check the taste to see if the old fellow knew his wine making. He did.
I then opened the third bottle, and poured it, too, down the sink, but not until drinking one full glass to check the purity. It was very good. I did this, also with the fourth bottle. One glass for myself, and the rest down the sink. I pulled the bottle from the cork of the next, and drank one sink out of it and threw the rest down the glass. I pulled the sink out of the next glass and poured the cork from the bottle, then corked the sink with the glass, bottled the drink and drank the pour.
When I had everything emptied, I steadied the house with one hand, counted the bottles, corks, glasses and sinks with the other, which were 29, and as the house came by I counted them again, and finally had all the houses in one bottle, which I drank. I felt so foolish that I couldn't go upstairs and congratulate my wife to tell her what a great winemaker her grandpa was. I will do that after climbing the basement steps the next time they come by. | | | |
| ChangeMe
 Grape Picker Posts:23

 | | 01/20/2007 3:42 AM |
|
For the paranoids out there: If you want to decant a wine for an extended period of time (like maybe a Port for 24 hours) find a decanter that doesn't have lead in it. Most decanters are made of leaded crystal and they are fine for wines that are in the decanter for two-three hours but too much longer one doesn't want the lead leaching into the wine. I won't affect the taste; it will just kill you.
Very interesting, and kinda scary too! So, why are a lot of "high end" decanters made with leaded glass?? Are they itchin for a lawsuit??
What if a dumb newb like me that is still trying to learn about proper decanting dumps a bottle into a nice Reidel Decanter (I believe they are ALL leaded), and lets it "aerated" overnight, and decides to chug-a-lug???? yeah, yeah, yeah, you'd have a newb thatd stop asking questions...
but still.... why leaded??
Thanks | | | |
| Al_ksyrah
 Barrel Filler Posts:1033


 | | 01/20/2007 4:17 AM |
| Quote:
but still.... why leaded??
It was used because it has a much higher index of refraction than normal glass. This gives it a "sparkle" from total internal reflection bouncing light rays around, in the same way that a diamond sparkles. The effect is especially pronounced with cut glass designs like Waterford, but it also gives smooth lead crystal pleasing optical characteristics. Lead crystal also is easier to machine to produce cut glass stemware and decanters. As far as the health risk, it's not a good thing to use lead crystal to store beverages for an extended period. But if you use lead crystal stemware and decanters occasionally over the course of a dinner, it's not likely to be a major source of exposure to lead.
-Al | | | |
| ChangeMe
 Grape Picker Posts:23

 | | 01/20/2007 5:00 AM |
| Hi Al,
Thanks for your insightful answer. Its still curious that despite the known health risk, fine stemware and decanters are made from leaded glass for the sake of asthetics. Albeit with the disclaimer that "short exposure" is negligible.
Perhaps with more experience, I'll upgrade, but for now, being green and all, I'll watch my pennies and start out with a lesser branded decanter. It also seems the leaded varieties are a little more costly. I found a less expensive (relatively) decanter online which is lead-free. Would there be any significant differences aside from the asthetic advantages of leaded glass such as weight, or quality perhaps?
I'm considering something like this: http://www.iwawine.com/orstore/ShowItem.aspx?productID=DC300-008
Thanks Your next (very distant) future Robert Parker.
 | | | |
| winebrat Sacramento, Ca.
 Barrel Sampler Posts:2326


 | | ChangeMe
 Grape Picker Posts:23

 | | 01/20/2007 3:16 PM |
| Quote:
Quote:
I'm considering something like this: http://www.iwawine.com/orstore/ShowItem.aspx?productID=DC300-008
I personally hate this decanter it is a pain in the A$$ to pour out of. The Duck rocks.
Hi Winebrat,
thanks for your comment. Apparently you have some experience with this style of decanters hence your position. I do not, so am curious as to your motivation.
I thought it was appropriate due to some critical elements discussed in other threads such as wide surface area to promote oxidation or oxygenation (one of the two has to be the right word, or maybe they are interchangeable), and ease of pouring into and splashing.
Also, I thought it'd be easiest of all decanter styles to clean by the swishing of hot water and inverted drying method to drain the water and evaporate the residue.
The duck appears to serve the same function, and is considerably more ornate. However, I was concerned with the cleaning part, which turned me away from some of the more "modern art" type designs.
Ease of "pourability" is definately worth considering too. Does the erlemeyer (sp??) flask style make the liquid rush out too fast due to the wide bottom and narrow neck making a controlled pour difficult?
Or is there another criteria/element that this green ear-ed newb has overlooked?
Anyone feel free to chime in...
thanks your (very distant future) rp. | | | |
| skwid
 Wine Connoisseur Posts:5452

 | | 01/20/2007 5:15 PM |
| Quote:
Quote:
I'm considering something like this: http://www.iwawine.com/orstore/ShowItem.aspx?productID=DC300-008
I personally hate this decanter it is a pain in the A$$ to pour out of. The Duck rocks.
The idea when using one of these decanters is to hold it so your arm is off to the side, not the back. Putting your arm to the side makes pouring possible. It is an unnatural way to hold the decanter but it works well. I've got several decanters like this one and that is what you have to do to empty the decanter. Personally I dislike the duck decanters, too had to clean. | | | |
| Al_ksyrah
 Barrel Filler Posts:1033


 | | 01/20/2007 6:03 PM |
| Lead crystal makes a bigger difference visually with cut glass decanters. I don't think it matters nearly as much with smooth decanters. There are other types of glass that also have high indices of refraction that are starting to be used for stemware and decanters. As far as the decanter you linked, I agree with winebrat, it's a PITA to use. I also think the extra surface area compared with many other decanters isn't that big a deal. As I recall, oxygen absorption is rapid at the surface but diffuses slowly to the rest of the wine. That's why aeration when pouring the wine into the decanter and/or swishing the wine in the decanter is useful for getting oxygen into the wine. I use a funnel with small holes in the side when I pour the wine into a decanter (not for very old wines). The wine hits the side of the decanter and runs down in a sheet, exposing most of the wine to oxygen.
I like the shape and utility of the Riedel cabernet decanters. I think they cost $40 in a crystal version and $20 in a cheaper version with the same shape (you can find them in Target stores).
-Al | | | |
| David Niederauer Los Gatos, CA
 Master Sommelier Posts:15708


 | | 01/20/2007 7:39 PM |
| ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, This is a PIA!
I have been on this planet for over six decades. For the first forty years most of us had no idea that lead could affect our health. I lived in a house that had nothing but leaded paint on the walls. The gasoline was leaded and the exhaust fumes were loaded with lead. Everytime I picked up a book or newspaper the ink had a ton of lead. When we had a fire in the fireplace we would burn newspapers to start the fire... more lead to breathe.
All that lead and I know live in good health to talk about it.
Today... Go look at the crystal section in any store. Warning signs are posted everywhere. It is worse than the warning signs for cigarettes.
It is like artificial sweetener. A mouse dies if within one hour researchers pump the equivilant amount of two-million diet Cokes into it. It isn't lead or artificial sweetener that is going to kill any one of us. Hell, it will be the water. The headlines today show that two gallons of water can kill. I mean, two gallons isn't very much. That's only 10 bottles of wine. One of us is more likely to die from drinking those 10 bottles. It probably won't happen though because the fall after five bottles will kill you first.
TBird, you could try this experiment. We'll buy you 30 magnum leaded decanters. On the first of the month you will pour all the wines you plan on drinking for that month. As you consume them daily see how you feel. Have your wife come on line and post when you drop dead and we will know what the max time is that we should let wine sit in a decanter. | | | |
| Al_ksyrah
 Barrel Filler Posts:1033


 | | 01/20/2007 10:38 PM |
| What do you have against TBird that you want him to drink all that oxidized wine? :-)
You have to ingest a lot lead to have it kill you in a short time. The concern is more about health effects from chronic exposure and it's worse for kids and pregnant women. The warnings about lead crystal are probably over-done, since I don't think there is much risk from them, at least for typical usage with wine.
-Al | | | |
| davidandrose Aurora, CO
 Grape Puncher Posts:934

 | | 01/21/2007 3:29 PM |
| Quote:
#4) How does one determine the correct amount of decanting time? Consider a young wine. It seems some postings suggest anywhere from 1-4 hours. How does one "know" it is "ready" to be drunk? Similar for a wine that needed to be separated from sediment? 1-4 hours or longer?
Ive found that one of the best ways to help determine the proper decant time is to see tasting notes on the wine, whether checking on this board, or Cellartracker, or one of the others. Many notes include specific decant times that will guide you towards the "sweet spot." Following the progress of notes over time (save the growing tendency of folks to post "new" notes with every bottle rather than replying to existing notes) will also help you gauge the progress of a wine and the time and benefit best served from decanting. You can then return the favor to others with notes of your own! | | | |
| Darlene
 Grape Truck Driver Posts:42

 | | 03/11/2007 8:18 AM |
| Quote:
This is a classic:
I was cleaning out my wife's grandpa's cellar and found 12 bottles of his home-bottled grape wine under the steps. My wife told me to empty the contents of each and every bottle down the sink, or else. I agreed to do the unpleasant task.
I withdrew the cork form the first bottle and poured the contents down the sink, with the exception of one glass, which I drank. I extracted the cork from the second bottle, did likewise, and drank one glass, just to check the taste to see if the old fellow knew his wine making. He did.
I then opened the third bottle, and poured it, too, down the sink, but not until drinking one full glass to check the purity. It was very good. I did this, also with the fourth bottle. One glass for myself, and the rest down the sink. I pulled the bottle from the cork of the next, and drank one sink out of it and threw the rest down the glass. I pulled the sink out of the next glass and poured the cork from the bottle, then corked the sink with the glass, bottled the drink and drank the pour.
When I had everything emptied, I steadied the house with one hand, counted the bottles, corks, glasses and sinks with the other, which were 29, and as the house came by I counted them again, and finally had all the houses in one bottle, which I drank. I felt so foolish that I couldn't go upstairs and congratulate my wife to tell her what a great winemaker her grandpa was. I will do that after climbing the basement steps the next time they come by.
Just read this post. Thank you for the laugh. | | | |
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