Chris
Grape Sorter
Posts:246
 | | 07/11/2005 12:00 AM |
| We went to one of our favorite seafood restaurants tonight and ordered one of our favorite sauvignon blancs- the Araujo Eiselle Vineyard Sauv Blanc. The guy brought their last bottle of it to the table and explained that there was some residual sugar at the bottom but it's "perfectly fine." I'm talking something like a dozen chunks and some smaller pieces taking up at least the bottom inch of the bottle. My gut told me no. So I ordered the Cloudy Bay Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc which was ok but not a substitute for what we had a taste for and not as good a match for the scallops with shrimp and duck fried rice.
Anyway, is that much sugar "perfectly fine"? | | | |
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| | 07/11/2005 12:23 AM |
| Residual sugar is sugar in the grape juice that is not converted to alcohol during fermentation. It remains in solution and can only be detected through testing or tasting.
Crystals at the bottom of a bottle are usually tartaric acid which normally precipitates out of solution when the wine is chilled. | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 07/11/2005 1:03 AM |
| It is definitely tartaric acid crystals. It is quite common in wine. It doesn't effect the taste at all really.
I think it forms on the inside of the barrels but usually doesn't make it to the bottle. And, depending on the acid in the wine, can form in the bottle also. I think the main thing that precipitates the stuff is unripe grapes.
Once you know what it is you'll start to notice it quite often. I remember the first time I saw it was in a bottle of Talbott Chardonnay cuvee Cynthia, a Monterey County wine that is bottledunfiltered. It had been in my cellar for a year on its side. When I pulled the cork and turned the bottle sideways to pour a glass nothing came out. There was a solid white crystalinne formation that had actually filled about a quarter inch of the neck. A little push on it with the corkscrew broke it up easily. The wine was wonderful and maybe better than it had been in previous bottles.
A month later I had a chance to chat with Rob Talbott. I asked him about it. He said with his unfiltered "Cynthia" the tartaric crystals were the rule and not the exception. They had even coined a term for it. The cuvee Cynthia is name after his wife and they refer to the crystals as "Cynthia's ring". | | | |
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ChangeMe
Master of Wine
Posts:11169
| | 07/11/2005 2:14 AM |
| | A lot of very good wines have tartarate crystals. Like previously posted, they're nothing to worry about. Who told you they were residual sugar, the sommelier(e)? | | | |
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Randy Sloan
St. Helena
Barrel Sampler
Posts:2054
| | 07/11/2005 2:43 AM |
| Quote:
and explained that there was some residual sugar at the bottom
LOL! That's classic. | |
Randy Sloan
Match Vineyards | |
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Chris
Grape Sorter
Posts:246
| | 07/11/2005 2:52 AM |
| It was the bar manager who called it "residual sugar." Didn't sound right to me but then again, it didn't look right to me either. At least he didn't call 'em "flavor crystals". I've experienced it in bottles over the years but certainly not such an extent as this one. I especially remember it often being in my grandfather's white wines.
Thanks a lot for the explanation everyone.
Is there a recommended serving technique to prevent it from getting in the glass? | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 07/11/2005 4:38 AM |
| I just pour the wine and don't worry about it. You may have a chunk in the bottom of the glass. You can dump that out when you get to the end of the glass if you want.
I certainly wouldn't bother decanting and leave behind some of the wine in the bottle. | | | |
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Pool Boy
Laurl, MD (DC suburb)
Master of Wine
Posts:13660
| | 07/11/2005 12:56 PM |
| | I've only encountered these tartarate crystals a couple of times over the past 4 years (when I started being really in to wine). How common is this? 1% or less? 5%? What's the rule here? | |
www.roguefood.com -- www.cellartracker.com | |
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wineismylife
Arlington, TX
Master of Wine
Posts:12003
| | 07/11/2005 1:37 PM |
| | I really don't see it that often myself but when it happens it doesn't bother me in the least. Just pop and pour. BTW, for some reason, I mostly see it on the bottoom of the cork after it is removed. I usually don't see that much in the bottle itself for some reason. I'm guessing since it is laying on its' side it is sticking to the bottom of the cork because it's easier to form there for some reason, correct good people? | |
Joe
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Wine is like potato chips around me...if it's open, it's gone. | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 07/11/2005 2:37 PM |
| I think (not 100% sure) that these crystalline form on the wood i.e. cork or on the insides of a barrel.
They're in more wine that you think. They don't always tend to "stick" together in one chunk. When they break off of the cork they fall to the bottom of the bottle. When the bottle is moved they are dispursed and 99% of the time you won't see them.
When a bottle has been properly stored i.e. on its side and not moved for several years is when the crystalline forms next to the cork in the neck of the bottle. When you pull the bottle out usually the crystals break away from the cork in larger chunks because the formation is larger. That is when you notice them. | | | |
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| | 07/11/2005 2:55 PM |
| Tartaric Stabilization of Wine
And, from another article...
Quote:
Acid Salts
Acids in juice or wine occur in two forms. Some acid exists in a free form, and some acid combines with minerals to form acid salts. The acid salts of potassium, sodium and calcium are always prevalent in wine, and these acid salts are not stable. Potassium and calcium tartrates can precipitate out of the wine after a long time. In particular, potassium bitartrate can precipitate after the wine is bottled unless the winemaker specifically removes this material. When the tartrate precipitates out of the wine, crystals are formed in the bottle. The potassium bitartrate crystals are harmless (cream of tarter), but the deposits can cause unsightly hazes in the wine. Sometimes, large crystals are formed in the bottle, and the tartrate crystals are mistaken for “glass” particles by the consumer. Producing wines with such gross visual flaws is not good for business, and commercial wineries avoid these difficult public relation problems by “cold stabilizing” all their white and blush wines. The cold stabilization process removes the excess potassium bitartrate material.
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 07/11/2005 3:05 PM |
| | Most of the wines that we buy are not filtered. Everytime a winemaker "interferes" with the natural juice it is going to change the taste. Yes, filtering removes the tartar preventing the crystals to form. The question is, "What else does it remove?". | | | |
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skwid
Wine Connoisseur
Posts:5452
| | 07/11/2005 3:13 PM |
| Quote:
Most of the wines that we buy are not filtered. Everytime a winemaker "interferes" with the natural juice it is going to change the taste. Yes, filtering removes the tartar preventing the crystals to form. The question is, "What else does it remove?".
Ask the folks at Yquem as they filter. Yquem has no choice, if there are any leftover yeasty beasties in a bottle of Yquem they will assuredly restart fermentation and spoil the wine. This is true for all sweet wines. | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 07/11/2005 3:16 PM |
| | Troo true skwid. I've seen some sweet wine from Napa that after one year in the bottle had a chunk the size of my thumb in it. It looked bad and even knowing there should be ansolutely nothing wrong with it the bottle went directly into the garbage. | | | |
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Al_ksyrah
Barrel Filler
Posts:1033
| | 07/12/2005 4:16 AM |
| I met some Russian scientists about 10 years ago who were trying to market a novel method for cold stabilization, basically zapping the wine with a high power laser. I believe most small to medium sized wineries just chill the wine for a week, or so, causing most of the excess potassium bitartrate to precipitate. I think they pump it off rather than filter to it, but they have to worry about oxidation.
-Al | | | |
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skwid
Wine Connoisseur
Posts:5452
| | 07/12/2005 4:39 AM |
| | Anyone who filters will probably do so at cooler temperatures as this causes the particles in the liquid to coagulate and thus they are easier to filter out. I suspect that mid 30's would not be an unheard of temperature to do filtering at. | | | |
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David Niederauer
Los Gatos, CA
Master Sommelier
Posts:15709
| | 07/12/2005 6:08 AM |
| I don't remember a thread with so many big words for a long time  | | | |
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Skippy
Grape Destemmer
Posts:65
| | 07/12/2005 6:11 PM |
| | You can filter, and not cold stablize, and you'll still have your 'flavor crystals'. Some wineries cold stablize, some don't. You will probably see this more in a restaurant, rather than at home, because the typical restaurant is storing the wine in a 'cooler' for more than 2 or 3 days. Good Somm's know that a white wine shouldn't be chilled/served at refrig temp. so they pull it from the cellar, and serve it, and offer to stick it in a bucket of ice while you drink it. At home, you store your wine in a temp contolled cellar, and bring it out, and hopefully serve it at a cool temp, avoiding the necessity to put it in the frig for 3 + days. Drink around the crystals, doesn't effect flavor. Just say no to white wine served at bottled beer temp! | |
Skippy | |
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Drew
Sammamish, WA
Wine Bottler
Posts:3080
| | 07/13/2005 12:16 PM |
| Great thread. I was moving the wine collection around and noticed that I had a bottle of Kistler Kistler Vin Chard that had a bunch of stuff floating in it. Initial reaction was to get really irritated that I had a pretty pricey bottle of chard that I was going to have to run through a strainer or something. I guess I feel better now | | | |
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Budman
Master of Wine
Posts:11833
| | 07/13/2005 12:17 PM |
| | DREW... that's not unusual for Kistler chards. | | | |
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