Will be in NYC with business associates on Friday night, any good recs for decent casual (unfortunately associates have no interest in places like Daniel) dining in the Times Square area and isn't there a great wine bar at Rockefeller Plaza?

Morrell's is at Rockefeller Center, but it'll likely be jammed Friday night. Timnes Square isn't the best area for dining, but a couple of blocks away is Le Madeleine, a pretty good bistro. I'd hop in a cab with them and go to Les Halles on Park Ave between 28th and 29th Streets.

This is not in the Times Square area (its in the Flatiron) but for a oenophile it is tough to do better than Veritas. Not nearly as expensive as Daniel. Check out the encyclopedic wine list at www.veritas-nyc.com. Scott Bryan, the chef, is exemplary as well.

A few that I enjoyed (in order). All casual, all reasonable priced (Cite, is a little more expensive):

Judson Grill
152 W52nd St
212 582 5252
Contemporary American

West Bank Café
407 W42nd St
212 695 6909
Contemporary American

Cite
120 W51st St
212 956 7100
French/American

Also, but never been:

Ruth’s Chris Steak House
148 W51st St.
212 245 9600

Board_O: Les Halles is a nice place, but not sure that it is the best place for Dinner with Business associates. It is VERY Loud. VERY!!!

True, but they don't want a place like Daniel and the food is great as Les Halles. Directly across the street is Park Bostro, a quiter place with also great food. Morrell's will be noisy Friday night also.

Thanks for the responses, I think this is a list I can work with .
Veritas...oh I could get in big trouble there, hopefully next time I'm in Manhattan, which better be for pleasure and with more interesting company...

Ya, I wasn't exactly thrilled with the food in and around Times Square last time I was there.

Stealth, are you free on Saturday night? The couple we had plans with have their son flying in unexpectedly and we thought about heading into the city.

Jones, have you been to Veritas? Is there a Jonesian Review? Maybe I spoke too soon, I should go check issue #1 to see if its there. But, if not, is a review upcoming? If not, can you do a quick mini review? Might be heading to NYC for a 10th wedding anniversay thing in May.... Or maybe not but I figure it's best to be prepared...

I have been to Veritas three or four times. I don't remember whether I posted review on the old Wine Spectator board or not. I am way behind on my NYC reviews (I need to do Jean Georges, Washington Park, Craft, L'orange bleu, Daniel. I also can't wait to dine at WD-50 assuming it opens as promised this week when I am in NYC in early May).

Veritas is a wine lover's destination. I am not a huge fan of Tim Kopec, the sommelier there, but regardless Scott Bryan's New American cuisine is quite fine and the wine list is encyclopedic. I doubt you would be disappointed if you went there for your anniversary. If you go nuts on the wine list it can get expensive.

I am a huge fan of Craft however and while the style of dining it practices is not for everyone (I have reluctantly concluded that San Francisco does not have enough sophisticated diners to support a Craft style restaurant here) Craft is my first choice for dining in NYC right now. The total concept at Craft is unusual and well executed. One can eat at a Daniel style restaurant in SF fairly easily.

Now Jones, you must know that you can't gop on about this 'Craft' without EXPLAINING it. Spill the beans dude -- what is this style of dining you're referring to?

I am also curious about your experience(s) at Daniel. I am also considering going there...

Daniel is a great four star experience with well done French food, an attractive interior space (that still allows smoking in spots sadly), and a very fine wine list that has a few reasonably priced treasure on it. Cheese cart is well done as well. Daniel represents haute cuisine dining and generally gives what someone expects to get when dining at this level of restaurant. I dined at Gary Danko on a Saturday night last year and at Daniel the next Saturday night. Daniel was clearly the better of the two restaurants imo.

Craft has a tasting menu but what most people are there for is ingredient style dining. What this means is that the menu is broken out into a listing of available products and sauces. The diner then gets to construct whatever one wants to have with whatever else one wants to have that evening. (Ducasse does this ingredient style dining to a lesser extent at his Spoon restaurants as well).

What this means is that there are no courses per se pre-assembled for the diner. You don't scan down the menu and request the Filet Mignon with mole, cashew vinegrette, red wine reduction, and sauteed apples the way one would do at Charlie Trotters. If you wanted that then you would select filet mignon from the proteins menu. You would then order the cashew vinegrette et all individually. Then you would put them together when they arrived at the table. This approach gives the diner freedom to pursue whatever s/he wants that evening. It also eliminates the typical quandry where the sides for one dish sound better than another while the dish with the lesser sides has the better main ingredient. At Craft, you order the side, sauces, and main seperately thus you get exactly what you want. The downside to this approach is most people don't want/don't have the capacity to think this hard about they want to eat that evening. if you go to Craft ask the sommelier if he is hiding any Bass Phillip Pinot Noir in the back.

Thanks bunches for that write-up Jones. It is much appreciated. By the way, what is the really reasonably priced gem on Daniel's list (PM me, pleeeeeeease!).

The bit about Craft is just fascinating. I'm emailing your post to Mrs. TJ as she'll enjoy that read.

1992 Henri Bonneau Cuvee des Celestins CdP

Jones, that's fascinating and logical. I can't think of the number of times when someone in my party at a restaurant has thought about or asked about having an entree with different sides, or even having the dish prepared a little differently. The more accommodative tend to get repeat visits, but this takes the concept to a whole new level. And certainly if S.F. can't support it, there is no way that Portland can!

I wish someone had the money and guts enough to try in SF. Unfortunately, new restaurant openings have slowed to a trickle so now is really not the time to try and get a rather avant garde idea off the ground. . I have run the concept past a number of friends who are restauranteurs, business consultants, and VCs and most of them have all given the concept a thumbs down in SF as a profitable business. Course all of them would really like someone to open an ingredients style restaurant anyway - just not involving them financially.

I think this could work in SF, you would just need the right location and the right chef (i.e. someone fairly well known). I have to agree with your restauranteur friends, now is not the right time to open a place like this. It does sound interesting though. I'm thinking of going to NYC for a wedding in early May so I might see where I can go then.

Jones, thanks for the tip on that Cdp.

<<scribble scribble>>

Gents-

I just returned from a 6 day trip up to NYC.

We ate at four places with/without friends. I would recommend each to all. The first 3 are renowned and expensive, for the well healed, well splurging, or on large expense accounts; the last is a relative cheapy, but worthy of trial in a different food category altogether.

Cafe Boulud- 76th and Madison

This restaurant, ensconced under east side apartments near the Whitney Museum has impeccable service, with attendant but not sycophantic waiters and sommeliers. There is the din of convrsation in the square dining roomThe menu is divided into 4 themes with appetizer and dinner: La Traditon-creamed sole, and roasted chicken;Le Potager- vegetarian;LeSaison- lamb and veal; Le Voyage- seafood dishes. Figure $80.00 per person without wines. TJ- this is not my idea of romantic, but a classic haute cuisine place in NY.

Veritas- 20th and Park

This restaurant, masked by a narrow entrance and walkway under overhang of construction scaffolding from building above, is like AZ, in no man's land. But don't judge the book by the cover; the food is ethereal. The service is less stately, the decor simple, but the prix fixe menu handed you is worth it all. The deserts are fabulous.
TJ, for a special occassion, this is worth a try. I'll email youmore details and the menu if you desire. Figure $85.00 per person without wines.

Peter Luger's- off Broadway at base of Williamsburg bridge; within walking distance from Marcy St. subway station. This is all Brooklyn, baby. Bay Ridge North.
You want to write a check? Yo...only cash accepted. You want a Bouche Amuse...here's yer friggin handkerchief. Now sit down. You came here for the steak so don't be a doof and order anything else. You'll get some slightly salty creamed spinach, big fat tomatoes, house sauce, and Italian fries. But the steak, diced, charred on the outside, super tender on the inside porterhouse is a winner. This is as my wife said " a restaurant for men doing business." Figure $65.00 per person. Bag the house wine. Get a brew.
Stealth- this may be more up your friends' alley. Casual, not stuffy, but excellent basic eats.

John's Pizza-
Bleecker and Broadway- the basic and original; or if you're into the yuppie east side, 64th and York-refined and fine. Brick oven thin crust hot piping pizza with the fixin's unlike anywhere else on Earth. Delish. Agasin, bag the wine, go for a brew. $20 per person.

BTW, the wine lists at Veritas and Boulud are expansive and expensive. Want a '94 Bryant? Both got it. But at $750.00+, you're money is better spent elsewhere. Both sell splits of very good wines. We tried the '99 Monbousquet at Veritas. Wine lists are books unto themselves, but too many wines of quality hover in the four digit range for my taste.

Keep an eye on your neighbor.These places are frequented by people you would recognize. You may find yourself if a wonderful conversation you never expected.

Dr. T -- PM coming your way, dude.

Also, thanks for the blurb writeups on these places -- much appreciated. I agree with your comments about Cafe Bolud. It's not exactly a romantic restaurant, especially when it is full, but you do see some interesting people there -- must be the neighborhood. But as it empties out, it becomes an even better place. I'll have to keep my eye on Veritas, too. We'll see.