Question of the day:

Is it poor form to suggest to a restaurant owner that they need to do some work on their wine list? For example, let's say you had dinner at a restaurant and the food was excellent, but what was available on their list was disappointing. Not disappointing for the price, but just poor juice.

After the fact, is it in poor taste to write a letter/call the restaurant commending them for the positive aspects of your dining experience, yet suggesting improvements to other areas (again, the wine list)? Would it be insulting to go as far as recommending specific wines that you know they could acquire and sell at the same price as the plonk that they currently have available?

We all love good food and good wine, so having good juice that is at par with the quality of food only makes sense.

I'm just curious as to your opinions on this and what you would do. I haven't come across the need to do this, but I'm sure it may happen eventually.

I have considered doing this before. But never have. Usually the smart ones figure it out quick enough and the ones that don't end up closing.

I've never told a restaurant that they had a poor wine list, but I have, on a number of occasions, recommended wines to the Wine Steward or the Restaurant Manager. I try to compliment those that have a good wine list as well.

Interesting question. I have never done so, but I would think any restaurant would love to receive constructive critizism.

This is a constant problem here in Montgomery County, MD. I know of several local restaurants that have very good food, yet the wine list is headed by Walnut Creek or Beringer White Zin. One establishment that I dine at regularly (great steaks and salads) I suggested that they should upgrade the wine selection to include at least some drinkable wine. (I didn't put it that way, but the only way to describe their selection of wine is to gag) The reply was that they didn't have much demand for wine so why bother. They do have a full bar however, so it isn't like people don't drink in that establishment.

On the other hand, one place went from having a small, ordinary list, to haveing a much larger, excellent list. So it is not a problem of not being able to, it is more a matter of giving a ****.

Personally, I don't see how any restaurant owner could beleive that there is no reason to have a reasonable wine list if they are trying to be "a fine dining establishment."

"love" is a strong word Eric. One person's constructive criticism is another person's idle bitching. I don't think a letter is in poor taste. Recommending certain wines crosses the line imo.

I was going to reply with the same thing. How many people take "constructive critizism" very well?!? Not many...

I have in fact done this several time. In all cases, the restaurants liked getting well reasoned, positive feedback. E.g.
"You wine lists is only suitable for toilet paper"
is not quite as effective as
"Have you considered some of the new US Pinots? They are a lot better, affordable, and go well with so many things on the menu?"

I agree with Jones that unless they know you pretty well, a specific label recommendation will have less impact than a good direction to take.

\bob

This brings up a favorite soap-box of mine. Why don't the wine magazines, like WS, produce a "sample" wine list for restaurants to choose from? You know what I mean - something that has 100+ wines from the "general" to the more "exotic"; from the cheapies to the uniquely expensive. With brief tasting notes after each.

Then restaurants can simply select from that an appropriate wine list for their food/clientele, comparing it to what their distributors can actually supply.

Maybe then we'll actually see wine lists that actually address US and the White Zin drinkers.

Lilac, I think the liklihood of that happening is slim-to-none. First off, any restaurant that gives a damn about wine would not need such a list. Secondly, a list like that would either have to be so comprehensive that it included hundreds of choice so all restaurants could obtain such wines. Really, all the restaurant need do, if they are lazy, is pick up a copy of WS and look at the wines rating 87 or above.

jb

How many people go to a Restaurant (even the elite Restaurants) for the Wine, anyway? How many? And, I am including people like us in that statement...

My answer: Not me.

But, would actually like to find 1 Restaurant in the US that serves 1/2-way descent Coffee.

LCC, I do. Wine is an integral part of the dining experience, whether I bring my own or order from the list (or more common for me, one of each).

It is to me also, Eric. But, it would not keep me away from a Restaurant. When I make reservations to a restaurant, I (almost) never check the Wine-list (1st). When I get there...I decide on the Wine. If there is nothing that I want, I order a Mixed Drink.

To a BYOW...is another story.

Understood LCC, but if it's a restaurant with a reputed wine list I will try to review it prior to dining in order to make my selection(s) in advance - thus not driving the other diners crazy with my lengthy study of the list at the table

JB's quote "Really, all the restaurant need do, if they are lazy, is pick up a copy of WS and look at the wines rating 87 or above."

or use VinoCellar like I did.

Would I be upset if I got constructive criticism on my wine list? Yes and no.
Yes, because I worked my ass off on it. Yes, because that person wouldn't know the budget I am bound to or the wines that are available to me or the amount of space I have to store wine or a thousand other things.
No, because I really want to learn. No, because if this guest took the time to write, why wouldn't I want to please them? No because I am new at this and any help I can get I can use.

Said it before but it really is tough to make a wine list. Very difficult to please everyone. Really would love to have you guys critique my list.

Oh - do you have any idea how many white zin drinkers there are out there?

Petey, looks like it's time for me to come to Cuba for a visit and skip the rums. I'll call ya.

jb

This has definitely been an interesting discussion. I think it's pretty safe to say that the general consensus is that as long as you're constructive in your criticism of the restaurant, it is appropriate to make suggestions to the proprietor. That's the only way they'll improve!

In regards to looking at wine available on a list, I usually know what the retail for the bottle is and can approximate the restaurant's cost. Also, I can often recognize who the importer is (or easily find out). Following from that, I know what else the importer has on their consignment lists. As a result, the wheels start turning and thinking about other wines that would be more suitable to the menu at hand, available at the same cost to the restaurant and of definite better quality.

The system here in Ontario is a little different than what you guys are accustomed to in the States. Sometimes it's for the better, and sometimes not.

I thought about this last night and remembered a couple of things I hadn't thought about earlier.

Several years ago, I was in the position of haveing a couple of hours to kill every Wednesday afternoon while I waited for my son to get out of Hebrew school. I make a habit of going to a nice little neighborhood French restaurant and having a couple of glasses of wine while I read a book while I waited. Since it was a very slow time for the place (after the lunch crowd and before dinner) I got to know the owner and the staff fairly well. I also got to see some of the workings of the place.

One thing I remember is all the wine salesmen coming to the place and trying to get the owner to buy from them.

Even maintaining a small but decent list can be a chore. There were constant visits from salespersons, tasting the wines, having to tell most of them no thankyou, etc. In addition, the wine list had to complement the food the restaurant served but still be 1) affordable, and 2) attractive to the customers (even in a nice French restaurant, there were those who wanted to know why there wasn't a White Zin on the list)

Time had to be spent educating the staff about wines in general, and the wines that were on the list specifically. Once it was clear to the staff that I was really interested in wines, we had lots of discussions about what went with what was being served, etc. Remember, at many establishments, turnover of waitstaff is very high, and often the waitstaff are either young, or not in an economic class where wine is a normal part of their life. Most of the staff in this restaurant were students at U of MD.

Every day there were three or four specials and the staff had to get together to discuss what wines to recommend with the specials, and what would not go etc.

Storage is always a problem, beer is delivered on a regular basis so there was no need to have more than a weeks worth on hand, wine on the other hand stays in the place a lot longer and has to be stored.

Wine is just not a big seller in many places. As noted here, we are not your typical diners when talking about wine. Most people just know Red or White? It is difficult to have to educate the customers while trying to keep up with the work. How many times did I hear I hate Chardonnay, what do you have in a Chablis? Try to explain to someone why you are recommending a wine from Chile when you are a French restaurant, or "No, Zinfandel is not always pink".

Another big problem is having wines that need to be cellared, space is expensive and the investment considerable. Not everyone is willing to pay for the cost of a good wine, especially at the markup a restaurant has to use in order to justify storage, etc. Sure you can buy the wine for $12 at the liquor store, but the restaurant can't sell if for that.

All these are reasons most restaurants don't have good lists, if they sell wine they sell what is easy to get, is what people tend to order, and can be turned over fairly quickly.

Last thought, how many of us have gone into a restaurant and decided we don't want that 98 CA Cab. But that is what the restaurant has to buy, there isn't any 97 or 94 available.

Sorry this is so disjointed and long, but it is just stream of thought without enough coffee yet.

I think a high level or haute cuisine restaurant should have a fantastic wine list. Part of what one pays for when dining at a fairly expensive plus restaurant is access to fine wines. Restaurants at this level with below par wine lists (Gary Danko for example - How Wine Spectator considers their list to be superlative is beyond me) are avoided by me.